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View Full Version : J. Crew Ad Featuring Boy With Pink Toenails Causes Controversy



Adam
04-13-2011, 06:32 PM
I wanted to title this thread " Boy Wears Pink. Fundies Heads Blow Off"

Have you guys heard about this? In a way, it's made me aware of how prevalent gender stereotypes are in this country, but the reaction hasn't surprised me in the least.

Good Afternoon, America. You are retarded.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/11/jcrew-ad-showing-boy-pink-nail-polish-sparks-debate-gender-identity/


A J.Crew ad that shows a top designer painting her young son’s toenails neon pink has some parents and doctors seeing red.

The image appeared in a feature called "Saturday With Jenna," which was emailed to customers last week and highlights a few of J.Crew president and creative director Jenna Lyons’ favorite products -- including the hot pink Essie nail polish seen on her son, Beckett.

The caption below the picture reads, “Lucky for me I ended up with a boy whose favorite color is pink. Toenail painting is way more fun in neon.”

But not everyone sees fun in the ad.

“This is a dramatic example of the way that our culture is being encouraged to abandon all trappings of gender identity,” psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a FoxNews.com Health column about the ad.

Media Research Center’s Erin Brown agreed, calling the ad “blatant propaganda celebrating transgendered children.”

“Not only is Beckett likely to change his favorite color as early as tomorrow, Jenna's indulgence (or encouragement) could make life hard for the boy in the future,” Brown wrote in an opinion piece Friday. "J.CREW, known for its tasteful and modest clothing, apparently does not mind exploiting Beckett behind the facade of liberal, transgendered identity politics.”

But Jo B. Paoletti, author of “Pink and Blue: Telling the Girls From the Boys in America” told FoxNews.com she believes critics are overreacting.

“Lots of kids, say 7 and under, might ask their parents for something that would seem to be cross gender, and I think most parents, especially in the privacy of their own home might think, what’s the big deal?" Paoletti said.

J.Crew spokeswoman Margot Fooshee said the company had no comment on the ad. Jenna Lyons did not respond to direct requests for comment.

When asked if the ad crossed the line, a majority of Fox News Twitter users backed Paoletti.

“What line would that be? Not forcing your child to like a color just because gender stereotypes say they should?” one commenter known as along_the_path wrote.

But not everyone agreed.

“Why would I want my son to paint his toenails pink?” ohthatmomma wrote. “Why woukd [sic] I want my son to paint his toenails at all?”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/11/jcrew-ad-showing-boy-pink-nail-polish-sparks-debate-gender-identity/#ixzz1JQRTyVqJ


:rolleyes:

I'm especially interested in what you Unforumzed moms have to say about this.

Hannah.
04-13-2011, 06:38 PM
This is NOT a big deal, really. I babysit a lot and usually the big sisters will want me to paint their toenails or do manicures and their little brothers think it looks fun, so they'll ask me to paint theirs too. Having different colored toenails is just plain FUN.

uncanny hats
04-13-2011, 06:40 PM
“Why woukd [sic] I want my son to paint his toenails at all?”

Why woukd [sic] anyone want anyone to adorn themselves at all?

Anyone stop to think that maybe the boy has some crazy fungus that needs covering?

Stephanie
04-13-2011, 06:40 PM
Ridiculous. If my 3 yr old wanted to paint his toenails, I would totally do it.

Lágnætti
04-13-2011, 06:55 PM
Out of curiousity, I wiki'd Dr. Keith Ablow. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ablow) Unsurprisingly, he's a hack and a giant, pulsating media whore, like pretty much all these rent-a-quote shrink/therapist types. He has co-written a book with Glen Beck and rather more amusingly, was once kicked in the head by a white supremacist he was visiting in prison ... which may explain his decision to co-author a book with Glen Beck.

uncanny hats
04-13-2011, 07:00 PM
Are white supremacists fond of candy pink nail polish? Yeah, there's all sort of these talking head about these days. The radio keeps blasting Charles Murray.

Often little boys will end up with nail polish on their fingers to help them stop biting their nails. Also, we might want to concern ourselves with the fact that the boy is missing stubble. Biting nails=trans.

Smooth face, pink nails, all you need to do is throw a dress on him and we have a future Ms. Mississippi.

Yuki
04-13-2011, 07:03 PM
lol@ being kicked in the head by a white supremacist.

I for one adore neon pink nail polish. Personally, we'd all be better off with more of it in our lives. Keith Ablow's comment sounds like the same trans panic they always spout whenever traditional gender roles are publicly disrupted: "Oh No! If traditional gender roles are done away with, EVERYTHING IS GOING TO FALL APART!!! Clearly, the presence/absence of nail polish is the glue that binds society together!!!1"

He's also wrong in thinking that, in disrupting the traditional gender narrative, you are abandoning gender identity. You're creating your own gender identity (which is personal anyway), rather than swallowing the repressive, bullshit one that society has shoved down your throat. But whatever. Obviously, he is an idiot.

Em
04-13-2011, 07:05 PM
My youngest son's favorite color, up until very recently, was pink. He's in 2nd grade and I guess society's bullshit is starting to slowly sink in. He still vehemently informs his sister that boys can like "girl stuff", too. Fully agreed, here.

fox in socks
04-13-2011, 07:12 PM
first pink nails, next amanda lepore. the connection is obvious.

Autumn
04-13-2011, 07:15 PM
I paint my toenails blue when I feel confused about my gender.

Damien
04-13-2011, 07:28 PM
I paint my toenails blue when I feel confused about my gender.

;l!

MTC
04-13-2011, 07:30 PM
I guess I'm what? non-gender? I rarely use pink or blue on my toes or fingers. *super confused*

Morrison
04-13-2011, 07:37 PM
I guess I'm what? non-gender? I rarely use pink or blue on my toes or fingers. *super confused*
If you're confused,yellow is the color for non-gender!
http://www.mynailsart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/yellow-nail-art1.jpg

Adam
04-13-2011, 08:57 PM
My youngest son's favorite color, up until very recently, was pink. He's in 2nd grade and I guess society's bullshit is starting to slowly sink in. He still vehemently informs his sister that boys can like "girl stuff", too. Fully agreed, here.

That's beyond awesome. I feel so bad for children who are forced into these completely idiotic ideas like " pink is for girls and boys can't play with dolls". Why? It's fucking ridiculous. And all because there are adults out there who have been spoon-fed the same thing and can't handle it when someone decides to not give a fuck. It makes me soooo angry.

Chalk
04-13-2011, 09:19 PM
This kind of gender indoctrination to kids is really tiresome. Children experiment, and they learn. Me and my sister used to put make up on our brother. It was much fun, and he didn't care (only that he had to be still for a while). We even put gold clipon earrings on him. He was better than a doll, he was full sized. ;l
Also, I think growing up with only women around, it was natural for him. Did he like to do stuff like this as he grew older, and did he turned out to be gay? No.

Morning Star
04-13-2011, 09:24 PM
^exactly. My boyfriend's cousin used to dress him up in girls clothes and make up when he was a kid. I think it was quite adorable. Who cares?

On another note, my mother dressed me in navy blue overalls... when i was a baby a lot of people thought I was a boy. She also bought me trucks, and blocks, and stuff. If your child likes to play dress up, play with dump trucks, or dolls. Who the fuck cares? Grr.

Autumn
04-13-2011, 09:40 PM
My nephew used to come over and play dress up. I have a great photo of him in a tutu, necklace and princess crown pushing a vacuum cleaner! That's what happens when your only cousin, and next door neighbor, is a girl. ;l

clarion
04-14-2011, 12:38 AM
Why do some people feel so incredibly threatened when someone dares to step outside his or her gender box? I don't get it. I'm an adult male who happens to also collect dolls. But I can hardly go look in the doll aisle at a toy store without someone making a snide comment, staring, or laughing. It's ridiculous and offensive and none of their business anyhow.

lacuna
04-14-2011, 04:11 AM
^What kind of dolls do you collect?

JAE
04-14-2011, 08:20 AM
This kind of gender indoctrination to kids is really tiresome.

It really is.

Interestingly enough, 100 years ago, pink was associated more with boys. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#In_gender) It's only been since the 1940s that it's been considered a 'girl colour', probably not helped with the arrival of Barbie and the eventual ghettoisation of girls' toys and things into one huge pink mass. All of which just goes to show how pervasive and insidious this type of gender stereotyping is.

Zippo
04-14-2011, 09:23 AM
But not everyone sees fun in the ad.

This is a dramatic example of the way that our culture is being encouraged to abandon all trappings of gender identity, psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a FoxNews.com Health column about the ad.

Media Research Centers Erin Brown agreed, calling the ad blatant propaganda celebrating transgendered children.

Not only is Beckett likely to change his favorite color as early as tomorrow, Jenna's indulgence (or encouragement) could make life hard for the boy in the future, Brown wrote in an opinion piece Friday. "J.CREW, known for its tasteful and modest clothing, apparently does not mind exploiting Beckett behind the facade of liberal, transgendered identity politics.

This is ridiculous. How is painting a kid's toenails pink "abandoning all trappings of gender identity"? And what's wrong with celebrating transgendered children? If a child is transgendered then surely it's better to make them feel comfortable with it than to ignore the issue or approach it negatively. And I also don't see how liking pink could make the child's life hard in the future.

One of my best friends is female, and we have been friends for literally as long as we could both talk (she is my age and lives next door to me). We grew up together, and would play with each other's toys... I was just as comfortable playing "houses" with dolls in prams as she was at playing with wrestling figures or toy guns. Neither of our lives have been made harder as a result. :confused:

Only real men wear pink. :)

Becka
04-14-2011, 01:28 PM
Lucien's favourite colour is pink. One of his fave things in the house is his hot pink feather boa, he's got a Tangled playset, pink knitted slippers and loves when we go to my friends house because he gets to play with the daughters and their dolls. When the daycare kids get home from school, he then spends the rest of the afternoon rough and tumbling with the boys. We recently bought him a new bike, it has Lightening McQueen on it but I guarentee you if he saw the Tangled bike, that would be sitting in my front hall now instead.

Do I worry about his "development"? Nope. We always tell him there is no such thing as girl toys or a girl colour. He can wear whatever colours and play with whatever toys he wants (though we do set limits.. no "violent" toys/characters, no bratz dolls etc). Do I worry about other kids giving him grief for his choices? Absolutely and we're working on giving him the means of dealing with those types of situations/people.

Andrea
04-14-2011, 05:58 PM
I caused a ruckus at my FIL's this past X-mas. My daughter received a dress-up trunk with lots of fun frilly things in it. My nephew, who is 3, wanted so much to join in the fashion show. Both my BIL and FIL were uncomfortable and trying to convince him it wasn't a good idea. I hooked him up in a green and pink taffeta number with high heels, a tiara, and a magic wand with fringe. My husband was getting pissed because of the tension (his father is a right wing nutter who proudly displays his Beck and O'Reilly books on the coffee table). My BIL finally said something along the lines of "You don't want to turn gay do you? Take that crap off!" I assured BIL if he was going to be gay he's about three years and nine months to late to do anything about it.

I seriously don't understand what the harm is. He's three. He's playing with his cousin. If no one would have made a big deal about it, the moment would have passed without consequence.

Em
04-14-2011, 06:10 PM
"turn gay." oh my. do homophobes have that tenuous of a grasp on their own sexuality?

I played with Barbies and G.I. Joes when I was little and I'm bi, so not the most shiny example for this kind of thing, but I'm fairly certain that you don't "turn" one way or the other. I always liked girls and boys equally. There was nothing that happened that "made me" bi any more than there's anything that "made" heteros straight. Why is that so scary and illogical to these people?

Lágnætti
04-14-2011, 06:12 PM
Honestly, you may as well change the thread title to J Crew Ad Featuring Boy With Pink Toenails Causes Fox to Manufacture Controversy. There is no actual controversy whatsoever. No actual complaints have been reported. It's an example of the way news isn't news anymore, it's just PR releases sent down the pike at regular intervals by various corporations. It's bread and circuses, a distraction from real events. I looked up Media Research Centre, the only other body quoted in that article and that thing is a nasty old neocon gravy train funded by Exxon Mobil and various sinister corporate-funded 'charitable' foundations who dish out grants to whomever serves their political purposes best while claiming the whole lot as a tax write-off.

Chalk
04-14-2011, 06:14 PM
"turn gay." oh my. do homophobes have that tenuous of a grasp on their own sexuality?

I played with Barbies and G.I. Joes when I was little and I'm bi, so not the most shiny example for this kind of thing, but I'm fairly certain that you don't "turn" one way or the other. I always liked girls and boys equally. There was nothing that happened that "made me" bi any more than there's anything that "made" heteros straight. Why is that so scary and illogical to these people?

It's a mixture of bigotry and fear, I think.

Em
04-14-2011, 07:00 PM
Yes, but fear of what, exactly? That they'll look sideways in passing at a pink shirt in a store and the queer fairy will visit them in their sleep and sprinkle gay rainbow dust on them? It goes back to that tenuous grasp again; why don't they know that other peoples relationships and interests changes nothing about their own? Are they afraid that on the occasion that gay becomes common that they will have to "switch sides" in order to continue to be cool and have the crowd think for them?

Maybe having to deal with panic attacks has helped me realize how utterly stupid irrational fear is, I dunno. Sure makes me want to whack a bunch of people upside the head at times, though.

iamstilljamiepoo
04-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Honestly, you may as well change the thread title to J Crew Ad Featuring Boy With Pink Toenails Causes Fox to Manufacture Controversy. There is no actual controversy whatsoever. No actual complaints have been reported. It's an example of the way news isn't news anymore, it's just PR releases sent down the pike at regular intervals by various corporations.

This pretty much sums it up.
“This is a dramatic example of the way that our culture is being encouraged to abandon all trappings of gender identity,”

Don't we want to abandon trappings of gender identity?
This is pretty prevalent in everything we do, in terms of media. My masters is in Media Literacy and we studied this stuff all of the time. One of my favorite assignments was taking advertisements out of magazines. We would find the "girl" version of a product and the "boy" version of a product and compare the ads. We then had to write a paper displaying what each of the ads say about gender.

I did Reebok shoes. The most obvious difference was that I couldn't find a Reebok ad for women's basketball shoes. They were all cutsey shoes. Which is fine. But the girls shoes are to make you look cute. The guy shoes were to enhance performance, make you run faster, jump higher, etc...
What if I'm a woman and I want to run faster, jump higher? Apparently I'm not supposed to.

Em
04-14-2011, 07:51 PM
^I'd buy boy shoes. Have before!

It also reminds me of how the playsets are made geared toward kids: up until recently I hadn't noticed because my oldest child had outgrown that age range of toys, but with the youngest two only 13 months apart, it became very obvious that boys were not supposed to play with kitchen style toys, and girls were not supposed to really have interest in things like skateboards. I have noticed changes in that here and there, but still, this past Christmas, it was a very limited selection of things like that.

Lágnætti
04-14-2011, 07:54 PM
I think gender identity is being shoved down our throats harder than at any time in the past 30 years. When I was a kid in the 70s, toys weren't colour-coded the way they are now. Sure we had dolls, but there wasn't this endless, white-noise level of vapid princessy-pink insanity there is now. Toys were often as not gender-neutral and there was no big controversy about girls playing with cars or blocks and Lego or toy guns in my neighbourhood. In fact, looking back, the 70s seem far more feminist and radical than nowadays. You know, at least you didn't see 11 year olds in 'porn star' t-shirts or Playboy logos.

I think the reason is the corporations have targeted younger and younger people as society grows more affluent and able to spend more cash on their youngsters and marketing in such broad-brush strokes is more effective on younger people than anything more subtle. Screeching pink is easily spotted at 50 paces and you can slap it on ANYTHING - I do mean anything - I'm actually convinced you could get people to buy dried dogs turds if you sprayed them pink and put glitter and a feather and maybe a simpering anime character on them - and get girls to buy it because OMG ITS PINK.

Adam
04-14-2011, 07:55 PM
It's fucking ridiculous. Becka, you're so awesome. Every kid would be lucky to have parents like that.

And yeah, is there heterosexuality so slippery and unstable that they really think a color or painting toenails can make you gay? Are people ok with being that ignorant?

Adam
04-14-2011, 07:58 PM
I was at Marshall's the other day and they had two versions of a cute, little DOG shirt. One pink and one blue. So now we are throwing this shit up on domesticated animals? WTF?

Lágnætti
04-14-2011, 08:06 PM
I remember watching one of those Cash in the Attic type programs a while ago and there was this stupid woman who was trying to get shut of all these amazing Scalextric sets she'd inherited. They were complete, in working order, everything. the presenter asked her if she didn't want to save it for her daughter, who was about two or three, and she scrunched up her face with an expression of outrage and disgust that only a truly narrow-minded twat can muster and pronounced with some heat, NO SHE'S GOING TO BE A GIRLY-GIRL. So you know, no complicated toys that could actually teach her anything. That's for lads. Just fluffy pink shit to make mummy feel safe and daughter adequately useless.

Adam
04-14-2011, 09:31 PM
Just fluffy pink shit to make mummy feel safe and daughter adequately useless.

That sentence was brilliant. It sums all this up perfectly. What are we protecting ourselves from? Are there any concrete examples of people being harmed by wearing colors or playing with certain toys? Where does it really come from? Is it simply the fear of homosexuality?

Also, I wonder if it isn't true that this indoctrination does something to our brains that disables us from viewing the sexes equally. Instead of everything on Earth being for everyone's enjoyment, we have divided things up between the sexes. We essentially are foolishly saying that male and female brains are biologically inclined to prefer certain colors or activities, which creates the illusion of there being a wider gap between the sexes. How nurturing are men, exactly? If pretending to take care of a baby doll wasn't frowned upon, would it help develop the nurturing side of the male sex? As a kid, I definitely wanted to play with dolls. When the boy version of My Little Buddy was released, I thought it was finally my chance to have a doll. Nope. My dad wouldn't allow it at the time ( he is embarrassed and has apologized since) and I was so disappointed. Instead, a steady supply of soldiers and trucks came my way from relatives and I couldn't force myself to find any of it " fun". I don't know, it's all so complicated. Yeah, I'm gay, but have no problem with my manhood or masculinity. Not getting to play with a doll did nothing to change that. Anyway, I'm rambling now. This is all so simple and yet so complicated.

Chalk
04-14-2011, 10:29 PM
I remember watching one of those Cash in the Attic type programs a while ago and there was this stupid woman who was trying to get shut of all these amazing Scalextric sets she'd inherited. They were complete, in working order, everything. the presenter asked her if she didn't want to save it for her daughter, who was about two or three, and she scrunched up her face with an expression of outrage and disgust that only a truly narrow-minded twat can muster and pronounced with some heat, NO SHE'S GOING TO BE A GIRLY-GIRL. So you know, no complicated toys that could actually teach her anything. That's for lads. Just fluffy pink shit to make mummy feel safe and daughter adequately useless.


That is so bullshit. There have been a couple of times where people has asked me what my favourite childhood toy and I answer "LEGOS", and they assumed "Oh so you were a tomboy". What the fuck? No I was a child who liked to fucking build things. Yeah, I turned out to be a geek, but I had other toys. It included a functioning little pink sewing machine (I loved that thing. I made clothes to all the toys, from the barbie and even the legos).

Also, it's really annoying watching young girls at 8-9 acting like they were 15. It's even to the point where they are actually selling boots with heels to children. Last month I saw a girl who couldn't be more than 10 years old. She was walking mid-winter down an icy hill wearing a 2 inch heel. What the fuck are this girl's parents thinking? THey seem to worry when they climb trees, but that doesn't concern them?

clarion
04-14-2011, 10:32 PM
^What kind of dolls do you collect?

Mainly Blythe, but I'm a casual collector of a lot of other lines and starting to get into vintage stuff.

A few months ago I saw a woman and her son in the toy section at a department store. When she caught him wandering down the aisle with dolls and such, she scolded him and told him to get out of the "girl section". Ugh. Boys can only play with dolls when they're called "action figures", apparently.

C33
04-14-2011, 10:34 PM
Honestly, you may as well change the thread title to J Crew Ad Featuring Boy With Pink Toenails Causes Fox to Manufacture Controversy. There is no actual controversy whatsoever. No actual complaints have been reported. It's an example of the way news isn't news anymore, it's just PR releases sent down the pike at regular intervals by various corporations. It's bread and circuses, a distraction from real events.

Ha!

So spot-on.

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 12:19 AM
That is so bullshit. There have been a couple of times where people has asked me what my favourite childhood toy and I answer "LEGOS", and they assumed "Oh so you were a tomboy". What the fuck? No I was a child who liked to fucking build things. Yeah, I turned out to be a geek, but I had other toys. It included a functioning little pink sewing machine (I loved that thing. I made clothes to all the toys, from the barbie and even the legos).

Yeah, the fact people STILL use 'tomboy' as a descriptor for girls who like anything other than socially sanctioned feminine crap boggles me.

I loved my Lego too. Lego was designed for children, not girls or boys specifically, although I'd be interested to see if there's been any marketing changes based on gender these days. I also loved my dolls, my doll's toy horses, my farm set, my train set, drawing books (hated colouring books though - so boring) and my bike. I also reviled girls comics because they were stupid, humourless, boring shit filled with the most tedious characters ever, and insisted on The Beano instead. In my teen years I reviled girls magazines because they were stupid, boring humourless shit filled with asinine invented boyfriend photostrip drama and bought film mags instead. I also liked to make cakes with my mum on a Sunday. Quick, someone tot it all up and find out which side of the gender divide I cleave to. Conclusion: god, why aren't I a lesbian?


Also, it's really annoying watching young girls at 8-9 acting like they were 15. It's even to the point where they are actually selling boots with heels to children. Last month I saw a girl who couldn't be more than 10 years old. She was walking mid-winter down an icy hill wearing a 2 inch heel. What the fuck are this girl's parents thinking? THey seem to worry when they climb trees, but that doesn't concern them?

It's beyond stupid given that children's feet are still growing and very malleable. The only thing they're getting a head start on are foot, back and knee problems. Bunions must be the new cool.

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 12:22 AM
Mainly Blythe, but I'm a casual collector of a lot of other lines and starting to get into vintage stuff.

A few months ago I saw a woman and her son in the toy section at a department store. When she caught him wandering down the aisle with dolls and such, she scolded him and told him to get out of the "girl section". Ugh. Boys can only play with dolls when they're called "action figures", apparently.

Or ACTION MAN.

I used to go to my sister's friends house and do APPALLING things with our Sindy dolls and her brother's Action Men at her behest. I blush at the memory.

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 12:29 AM
Mainly Blythe, but I'm a casual collector of a lot of other lines and starting to get into vintage stuff.

At the risk of total thread drift, the vintage doll scene is amazing. A couple of years ago I got my old dolls' house out of my parents' attic and found all my old Pippa dolls inside. They'd be there since about 1979, give or take. I tentatively googled to see if they were worth ebaying, thinking I could get maybe a fiver for them all. Instead, I discovered this whole universe of obsessive British doll collectors who have their own special conventions and everything. I ended up googling how to properly clean up the dolls and flogged them all to serious collectors on ebay. One fetched 120. I could not believe it.

JayPeaches
04-15-2011, 12:35 AM
Helen, they've got a whole series of girly pink legos now. Ridiculous.

http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens9179401_1265006784LEGO_Pink_Brick_Box.jpg

Kala
04-15-2011, 12:39 AM
It's beyond stupid given that children's feet are still growing and very malleable. The only thing they're getting a head start on are foot, back and knee problems. Bunions must be the new cool.

Not to mention hammer toes. When these kids grow up they'll be filling the offices of chiropractors and podiatrists everywhere!

Chalk
04-15-2011, 12:42 AM
She probably fell and broke something, as she could barely walk in them and it was really icy.

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 12:45 AM
Helen, they've got a whole series of girly pink legos now. Ridiculous.

http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens9179401_1265006784LEGO_Pink_Brick_Box.jpg


ARGH STAB STAB KILLLLLLL.

fullofwish
04-15-2011, 12:46 AM
Yeah, the fact people STILL use 'tomboy' as a descriptor for girls who like anything other than socially sanctioned feminine crap boggles me.


Is there a boy equivalent? Or will boys always want to be boys and it is only girls who may want to be boys (because boys are superior?) ... so many questions are raised in a mere three pages of this thread that I wish more people - parents or not - would think deeply on.

My sister was considered the 'tomboy' of us. I had more interest in ponies and dolls and interestingly enough, I am the one who has grown up with *issues* about femininity. We are both straight, but we have experienced our identity as women in different ways. I would not draw conclusions purely on our experience, but it does make me think about not only what the gender roles are that we have as a society, but how important it is for kids to be assured that whatever they are, it is OK. They don't have to live up to any kind of role or expectation or image. As themselves, they are enough.

Star Wars was MASSIVE when I was a kid, and I had so much Star Wars stuff. But it was my neighbours (2 boys) who had the board game and everytime I went there to play it, I wanted to be an ewok and every single time I was told no, you have to be be Princess Leia because you are a girl :rolleyes: It was kind of like being female gave me default options - that I should like and want - rather than a real choice.

Chalk
04-15-2011, 12:55 AM
There's another thing it annoys me ... buying womens running shoes. Every single one, despite different brands, had a pink detail in it. Really? They are running shoes. I'd opt for the "man" ones, but I have really small feet. That's pretty much anything in general for adult women.

fullofwish
04-15-2011, 01:01 AM
Actually, that reminds me how a few years ago I wanted to buy car seat covers because my seats were pretty nasty. Everywhere I looked, they were either black with lightning bolts and shit on them (for teenage boys I think) or they were black with pink flowers/pink hearts/playboy bunny on them which were obviously the girl ones. So I ended up with pink hearts which kind of made me cringe but were the best of the bad bunch. Why not stripes? Why not green or blue or purple or something? It was immensely frustrating.

Becka
04-15-2011, 01:07 AM
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens9179401_1265006784LEGO_Pink_Brick_Box.jpg

dont forget

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3664614reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-4125117reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3669743reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-4104171reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3670383reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-5502150reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3672084reg.jpg http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3672639reg.jpg

Because you know primary colours are not for girls.

Hitherto
04-15-2011, 02:24 AM
Everyone knows that this whole pink=girls thing wasn't always the case, right?


For example, a Ladies’ Home Journal article in June 1918 said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html

Edit: Oops! Already covered - sorry!

Em
04-15-2011, 02:43 AM
Everyone knows that this whole pink=girls thing wasn't always the case, right?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html

Yes, that was already covered in the below post, page 2 of this thread.





Interestingly enough, 100 years ago, pink was associated more with boys. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#In_gender) It's only been since the 1940s that it's been considered a 'girl colour', probably not helped with the arrival of Barbie and the eventual ghettoisation of girls' toys and things into one huge pink mass. All of which just goes to show how pervasive and insidious this type of gender stereotyping is.

Also this reminds me of those photos that I think it was Other Pete posted a while back about the photographer that had pulled out all of the blue toys and all of the pink toys in boys and girls rooms. I found that really eye opening and have wanted to go through my own kids rooms to see what would happen. Which I haven't done because it's too much trouble, frankly.

Adam
04-15-2011, 05:58 AM
This topic is so fascinating. I can't believe those photos of boy/girl versions of toys. It is just INSANE that we've decided to assign colors to gender. Anyone think we could ever find out why it happened? Did the fucking Crayola Fascist Police hold a secret meeting somewhere?

Also, the male equivalent of "tomboy" would be "sissy" I assume. But why is it that you can call a girl a tomboy and mean it in a harmless manner? I hear people all the time describe a little girl as a tomboy and mean it as " Look at how cute that little girl is, skinning trees and wanting to ride an ATV". Being called a sissy never means anything but shame and humiliation; but it's ok to be a tomboy.

I also just had a conversation the other day about how limited men's clothing is. Often, it is trendy for women to wear things usually worn by men, like a men's suit. Best example would be "boyfriend" jeans. Can you imagine Gap having a "girlfriend" cut for men? It's like I love that old 1930's look for men and have this amazing vintage pair of loafers that are black with a huge bow on the toe and are patent leather. I love them, but of course, some people tell me I'm wearing a girl's shoe. Umh. No. I'm not. It's strange how even fashion has even changed to reflect the narrow gender constructs we all must squeeze into these days, even if we consider ourselves to be thoroughly modern. Could you imagine going to the mall for some pantaloons and a cape?

fullofwish
04-15-2011, 06:11 AM
I knew there would be a boy version of tomboy and, as suspected, it is a more derogatory term. Which kinda goes along with my thinking that there is a greater acceptance of a girl wanting to be like a boy (because they are better/superior) but for a boy to want to be like a girl is degrading.

I took a Sociology class last year and the lecturer went on a LOT about how fashion is an example of this acceptance for women to emulate men but not vice versa.

It made me think a LOT about we look back at the past, through history, and see old gender stereotypes and roles as antiquated and archaic, but I'm not convinced we have moved that much forward. The roles might be different, but not necessarily evolved. Women may have more rights and opportunities, but obviously the pervasive expectations of what a gender is or does is still very much alive.

Those toys make my head spin.

Octopussy
04-15-2011, 06:18 AM
It really is.

Interestingly enough, 100 years ago, pink was associated more with boys. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#In_gender) It's only been since the 1940s that it's been considered a 'girl colour', probably not helped with the arrival of Barbie and the eventual ghettoisation of girls' toys and things into one huge pink mass. All of which just goes to show how pervasive and insidious this type of gender stereotyping is.

pink = color of vaginas. Everything associated with girls must be vaginal.

(did you know "vaginas" is not a word?? It felt too weird typing "vaginae"!!)

JayPeaches
04-15-2011, 06:20 AM
Also, the male equivalent of "tomboy" would be "sissy" I assume. But why is it that you can call a girl a tomboy and mean it in a harmless manner? I hear people all the time describe a little girl as a tomboy and mean it as " Look at how cute that little girl is, skinning trees and wanting to ride an ATV". Being called a sissy never means anything but shame and humiliation; but it's ok to be a tomboy.
YES. I was just coming in to post something similar. Atypical (by societal standards, not mine) gender activities and dress seem to be somewhat acceptable in little girls and even seen as cute and "tomboyish," but the reverse is not at all tolerated in boys. Personally I don't see the point in even commenting on it in either case - kids are not sexualized mini-adults. They don't have pre-conceived notions of what they should or shouldn't like, they just go with what they're interested in. Both of my nephews' favorite colors are pink and purple, and one of them dressed as a ballerina, tutu and all, for dress-up day at school. I'm so happy that their mother (who's staunchly Southern Baptist) just lets them do what they want in that regard. I never hear anything like, "Oh, that's for GIRLS!" or anything of the sort. The oldest even went through a stage of nursing all of his stuffed animals and dolls, going so far as to sit in a chair with a towel over the doll/animal to conceal the nursing just like his Mom did. Some adults might be horrified by that, but he was just emulating his mother, whom he had seen breastfeeding his baby brother that way. I thought it was cute!

In general, kids seem to be treated more and more like mini adults. I mean look at girls' clothing these days - it's basically adult fashion in miniature. I don't get it. All I ever wore as a kid was jeans, shorts, and t-shirts. That's it. I may have had a dress or two for special occasions, but otherwise I just dressed pretty gender neutral. All the kids did.

Dartma
04-15-2011, 06:31 AM
this is dumb, honestly

Adam
04-15-2011, 07:09 AM
I would imagine that we should form our ideas of what is "normal" by studying instinctive child behaviors. Since they are clean slates, they should define what "normal" is...

Dangerjohn
04-15-2011, 08:35 AM
I'm especially interested in what you Unforumzed moms have to say about this.

Not the fathers?

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 08:40 AM
dont forget

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3664614reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-4125117reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3669743reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-4104171reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3670383reg.jpghttp://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-5502150reg.jpg

http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3672084reg.jpg http://trusca.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRUCA1-3672639reg.jpg

Because you know primary colours are not for girls.

Ye gods. It's worse than I thought. Even the basic early learning toys are now gendered? Isn't the whole point of primary colours that CHILDREN in their early developmental stages are attracted to them because they are able to easily distinguish between them, as opposed to wishy-washy shades? So basically, by handing a very young girl a toy coloured like pastel puke is ignoring all known wisdom on the topic of child development and effectively providing her with a less favourable learning experience than the boys who get the stuff known to work with that age group's eyesight?

This is truly insane. JIHAD.

Lágnætti
04-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Also, the male equivalent of "tomboy" would be "sissy" I assume. But why is it that you can call a girl a tomboy and mean it in a harmless manner? I hear people all the time describe a little girl as a tomboy and mean it as " Look at how cute that little girl is, skinning trees and wanting to ride an ATV". Being called a sissy never means anything but shame and humiliation; but it's ok to be a tomboy.

Yeah, sissy is hostile, shaming language designed to humilate the target while tomboy is more of a patronising affair. Like, aww, look at her, she thinks she can do stuff like a boy, how sweet. Never mind, let's just indulge her and she'll surely grow out of it one day and be a proper girl who likes frills and babies.


I also just had a conversation the other day about how limited men's clothing is. Often, it is trendy for women to wear things usually worn by men, like a men's suit. Best example would be "boyfriend" jeans. Can you imagine Gap having a "girlfriend" cut for men? It's like I love that old 1930's look for men and have this amazing vintage pair of loafers that are black with a huge bow on the toe and are patent leather. I love them, but of course, some people tell me I'm wearing a girl's shoe. Umh. No. I'm not. It's strange how even fashion has even changed to reflect the narrow gender constructs we all must squeeze into these days, even if we consider ourselves to be thoroughly modern. Could you imagine going to the mall for some pantaloons and a cape?

I can imagine going to certain subculture's stores, especially British/european goth. They are much more relaxed about gender rules, with it being fine for men to wear make-up and flamboyant outfits or tend towards the fey without censure. But that's it.

Clothes for men are limited, I agree, but bear in mind that most clothes for women are far less hard-wearing, less practical (the lack of pockets can be pitiful) and are priced over the odds compared to the same or similar products for men. In fact, this applies across the board. Women's toiletries are priced higher for the same thing - go look at razors aimed at women as opposed to men, or shaving foam, or body wash. Any 'female' product typically has a premium attached.

Adam
04-15-2011, 09:19 AM
Not the fathers?

Yes! Absolutely!

Adam
04-15-2011, 09:23 AM
. Any 'female' product typically has a premium attached.

Because you women will clearly pay more to stay beautiful since it clearly is the most important job a female has in this life. ;)

Dangerjohn
04-15-2011, 10:48 AM
We buy most of Gracie's clothes from the boys sections. "Girls clothes" are just cutesy pastel crap with Tinkerbell or Hello Kitty on.
"Boys clothes" are band t-shirts, Looney Tunes, Where The Wild Things Are. Bright loud stuff. Gracie is bright and loud.
If we ever go pink then it's bright electric pink.

fox in socks
04-15-2011, 11:45 AM
In fact, looking back, the 70s seem far more feminist and radical than nowadays. You know, at least you didn't see 11 year olds in 'porn star' t-shirts or Playboy logos.
slightly tangential, but i think this is an important point. its like feminism in the 21st century is the anti-feminism. a lot of people support this pink, princess, porn star wank as reclaiming the cunt. germaine greer is likely raging in the outback. its hardly reclaiming the cunt as ultimately, the gender roles, and "a womans place" are even more strongly defined. it's just a bit more out in the open.

at the same time, the misogyny and fear rampant in the "don't turn my son gay" rhetoric is hardly disappearing in the current culture of hyperhetero gender roles. sorry righters, but keeping girls in princess shirts and boys in dinosaur pants isn't going to be the vaccine to the dreaded homosexuality.

i always find it amusing when i go to buy baby clothes for friends with newbs. for the new-3 month range, its not bad; lots of yellow, green, orange animal print type stuff available, but from 3 on, its pink or blue. purple or brown. and even within that shit, everything is adorned with gender specific narcissistic wank "me and mommy love to go shopping", "tough guy", "pretty unicorn princess", "ima cutie", "mommys troublemaker". i hardly have to explain which phrase goes with which gender. absolutely ridiculous. outrage in the outback indeed.

Kari
04-15-2011, 02:58 PM
When I was a little girl, I had about 40 Barbies. Not kidding. I loved playing dress up and putting on makeup. I also had legos, an ant farm, Lincoln logs, building blocks, a rock collection, countless dinosaurs, and a million other "boy" things. I am a better and brighter person for it. I excelled in Science as well as English and art precisely because my folks didn't take away toys from me for the dumb ass reason that it was the wrong fucking color. No wonder our kids are getting dumber. They are not allowed to express themselves freely or be comfortable with exploring different interests.

Man, my parents were fuck ups in a lot of ways, but they never would have shamed me for liking """boy stuff""".

Octopussy
04-15-2011, 04:02 PM
at the same time, the misogyny and fear rampant in the "don't turn my son gay" rhetoric is hardly disappearing in the current culture of hyperhetero gender roles. sorry righters, but keeping girls in princess shirts and boys in dinosaur pants isn't going to be the vaccine to the dreaded homosexuality.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Cheerleader-pickets.jpg

Ryan
04-15-2011, 10:54 PM
My parents let me play with My Little Ponies. Oops.

But seriously, I'm thankful that I had parents who let me be myself and figure things out on my own. I don't remember them ever telling me that I couldn't do something because it was "girlie" or wrong.

MTC
04-16-2011, 12:32 AM
Being called a sissy never means anything but shame and humiliation; but it's ok to be a tomboy.

Up to a point. Once I hit 12 I was told I had to stop playing with boys. All my best friends were boys. I was really socially lost from that point on for quite a while. I didn't know how to be a girl in that - I hated playing with dolls, gossiping, back stabbing put downs etc. which all the girls around me seemed to excel at and enjoy. I adapted enough to blend in (but never fit in) enough to survive through high school.

Adam
04-16-2011, 02:56 AM
^ that is terrible. I just don't understand how adults can do that to a child. Gosh, after watching Real Housewives of New York just now, I'm disgusted by our world.

Jezebelle
04-16-2011, 03:20 AM
Somehow I missed all this newsy drama! And my second son's name is Beckett!

I painted my oldest son's toenails pink this Christmas. My right wing brother showed up the next day with nail polish remover and took it off! It seemed so silly to me but whatever.

What a stupid thing to get pissed off about. I would hope my sons end up being gay, but I don't want to put ANY expectations on who they become... so long as it isn't conservative. Truly.

Corey Haim
04-16-2011, 03:35 AM
at my work, we have different colored droppers for oral antibiotics so that the parents/caregivers can measure out the proper dosage when administering the drug to the patient. naturally, of course, the droppers come in blue (MALE!), pink (FEMALE!), and yellow (POLITICALLY CORRECT? NEUTRAL?). for my own sick amusement, i'll put a pink colored dropper for a male patient into the paper bag holding the medicine, information pamphlet, etc...but i'll do this kneeling down beneath the register so that the parent (or whoever is picking up the medicine) can't see what i'm doing (and also, the droppers are located in a bottom drawer below the register so i DO have a reason for kneeling down). anyway, i'll also put the blue colored droppers with medicines for female patients. and then i'll STAPLE the bag shut so that the parent can't see what colored dropper i've put with the medicine(s) until AFTER they've left the premises.

honestly, i doubt that any of the parents get that annoyed with my silly, evil scheming, but let me tell you, it is so fun (to me at least), to mess with people's perceptions about gender stereotypes and conditioning. i mean, the whole pink/female and blue/male gender (sexual?) identification process begins at birth and what trips me up about it is that if a boy likes pink, he's labeled a sissy, a fag, a little weakling...but if a girl likes blue, then it's OK because she's taken on "strong" masculine qualities.