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Waylon
05-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Okay guys. I'm not a self-loathing homo, so don't even go there. But I do fully believe that it's important, no matter what subculture one belongs to, to have the ability and willingness to turn a critical eye towards your people.

The obvious things that bug me are (1) the cattiness/bitchiness and (2) the obsession with being thin/gorgeous/fashionable/whatthefuckever. But that's old news.

But what really grinds my gears at the moment...well, I live in Anchorage, Alaska...we have a relatively small queer community here, but it's very active. And it drives me nuts how so many people get involved with the Imperial Court system (emperors, empresses, princesses, etc) and finally find themselves part of a "cool clique"...usually they were probably awkward or unpopular as kids or whatever...so they get super into being part of a group, with inside jokes and everything. And it just makes me want to vom.

Now don't get me wrong, I love what these people do for the community. They raise money for scholarships for LGBT students, they fight tirelessly for gay rights, they bring the community together. But ultimately it's all a great big popularity contest and I fucking can't stand it.

Thoughts?

other pete
05-27-2011, 09:24 PM
I hate the food.

Waylon
05-27-2011, 09:29 PM
I hate the food.

BAHA!

I think I know what you mean, but can you give an example?

Corey Haim
05-27-2011, 09:42 PM
like ice cream?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w02QxQZGQc

Waylon
05-27-2011, 09:46 PM
^ ew.

other pete
05-27-2011, 10:57 PM
^ indeed! I was just being silly above, and really I empathise a lot with what you're saying. I don't think it's necessarily a uniquely gay thing, but that is an example I've seen too. I think small communities with a sense of exclusion from the mainstream seem to be particularly good at 'enforcing' their own social codes upon their members and, in collossal neverending ironyfails, potentially being even more narrow minded than the mainstream they define themselves in opposition to. But don't give up, there are lovely people out there too, they're probably just quieter than the ones whippin up a storm of biatchery. Keep hunting!




As a side issue, I've never felt any attachment to the word queer because it
seems so vague - queerer than what? I know heterosexual people with
proclivities that'd probably make an average dark room visitor blush. I
absolutely believe that no 2 people have identical sexualities (any more than
they have idential personalities) and while it's sensible to describe groups of
people in terms of broad similarities it (in my own exp) gave a surprising
feeling of alienation from 'The Gay Community' when I first, ahem, lauched
myself upon it.

I spent my teens secretly watching worthy "It's OK To Be Gay!" TV shows which
earnestly told me that my friends and family would probably reject me or try to
change me If They Ever Found Out, while a great big rainbow club of cuddles
awaited out there. In reality the opposite was closer to the truth - friends and family
were "yeah, whatever", while many (initial) gays were "OMG IN THAT SHIRT?". For
balance, before I paint myself as utterly bitter and self righteous I've
only talked about the negative side here because that's the subject - I've been
incredibly lucky to meet wonderful people who I really clicked with too, but
yeah, if I could tell my 18 year old self anything it would be about expectation
management. And probably getting some better shirts, to be fair.



Small minded bitchiness and clique-iness are infuriating wherever they're found. But I suppose my point is that I really dont think it's directly connected to sexuality at all. Jerks are spread over the planet fairly evenly, they just sometimes find particular points of coagulation.

Yuki
05-28-2011, 06:12 AM
As a reply to Pete's side note, I've always thought that the contemporary usage of the word queer (at least within queer/ social justice communities) comes more from queer theory than any colloquial usage. It's to do with having non-normative sex/gender expression, so one might be cis/trans/gay/bi/hetero et al and still identify as queer, rather than being "queerer" than the cis/heteros as a monolithic group. I've always embraced the label because it's so inclusive, and has more to do with self-identification than with being identified by others.

What irritates me about being queer? Way too many things ;l I'll have to come back to this later.

Strangely enough, I'm a bit apprehensive about having SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery; I'm a trans woman) because once it's done, I feel like a lot of my queerness will be erased. For better or for worse, I'll be essentially just a plain old heterosexual woman, albeit trans, and I'm not so comfortable with that identity.

Whappo
05-28-2011, 11:22 AM
Strangely enough, I'm a bit apprehensive about having SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery; I'm a trans woman) because once it's done, I feel like a lot of my queerness will be erased. For better or for worse, I'll be essentially just a plain old heterosexual woman, albeit trans, and I'm not so comfortable with that identity.
I've wondered about this before - it's interesting. I think there's potentially an argument there that, should you wish to hold onto your queerness, you can consider it something informed by your entire history and therefore something you can't truly erase. But then I can also imagine a lot of post-reassignment trans people not wanting that to inform their true identity, and I wonder to what extent it might feel to them like they're rejecting their queerness. There's a sort of dissonance there, where transitioning is a process during which you're queer, but the end result might not be considered queer by some.

I hope I'm not coming across like an arsehole here, because my understanding of trans issues is so limited that I'm possibly being hideously offensive. I probably need to read more queer theory instead of just making slack-jawed observations!

And what bugs me about being queer? I'll be honest, probably nothing. The irritations come from other people's notions of my sexuality, inside """the community""" or out. I'm not "scene" (lol), but that's less of a statement and more that I can't be arsed with the stereotypical trappings. I've been lucky to find a good variety of people, and I realise that. I'm more comfortable with my gay friends now because it doesn't really enter into it. I mean, we are VERY VERY GAY. But it's not as though anything hinges on that or like it has any expectations or demands.

I tend to have a fairly bleak view of the majority of people anyway, though. When I meet dickheads, I don't really attribute it to a certain community. They're just people. And most people are dickheads.

Octopussy
05-28-2011, 11:49 AM
1. ignorant people
2. other queers (stupid ones)

that's about it.

Banjee
05-28-2011, 01:37 PM
I get really frustrated with how homogenized, segregated and misogynist the gay male scene is here in the U.S. Also, gays and lesbians lack of gay history is embarrassing. I realize that it's not something taught in schools, but, shouldn't we take an interest in how gay identity has been shaped through the years? The struggles of gay folks before us? Poppers, fisting and Francois Sagat they know all about. but, Edmund White? Audre Lorde? Jonathan Katz? Kate Bornstein? The hateful Anita Bryant? Stonewall? The AIDS quilt? Do we have to wait until some straight actor decides to be "heroic" and portray a historical gay figure to take an interest in our history?

Whappo
05-28-2011, 02:41 PM
I agree, but the problem there is that "gay history" is still a nebulous concept. Your examples are all from one country, and it's likely that even if you asked someone else in your area with an interest in queer history they'd construct an almost entirely different timeline highlighting different figures. It'd be nice for more people to be inquisitive, but it would also be nice if that inquisitive nature was rewarded with easier access to resources about LGBT history and issues (this is still an issue for many), as well as resources and oral histories that were wider in scope.

Banjee
05-28-2011, 03:34 PM
You're absolutely right. Gay history is very nebulous and regional. This is precisely why we should be having these conversations- conversations such as, not only does uganda suck, but these other places as well AND this is what we're going to do about it-- rather than the "is lady gags replacing Madonna as the new gay icon."

Yuki
05-28-2011, 03:37 PM
I've wondered about this before - it's interesting. I think there's potentially an argument there that, should you wish to hold onto your queerness, you can consider it something informed by your entire history and therefore something you can't truly erase. But then I can also imagine a lot of post-reassignment trans people not wanting that to inform their true identity, and I wonder to what extent it might feel to them like they're rejecting their queerness. There's a sort of dissonance there, where transitioning is a process during which you're queer, but the end result might not be considered queer by some.

I hope I'm not coming across like an arsehole here, because my understanding of trans issues is so limited that I'm possibly being hideously offensive. I probably need to read more queer theory instead of just making slack-jawed observations!


Oh, not at all! I know a lot (maybe most?) trans people see SRS as a way to become "normal", but I feel as differently about that as possible. I've never fallen into the "born in the wrong body" camp, and I don't see SRS as correcting this fundamental error in my physiology that's preventing me from sitting at the breeder table. I'm queer through and through and don't want to let that go post-op.

I guess one major issue I have with being queer is how fucked-up queers are with regard to stereotypes. This probably isn't the best example to use, but for example, the comment threads on websites like Queerty show just how insecure we are in the face of mainstream representations of queers- and how we react to those representations. So we have this horrible sort of internalized homophobia/misogyny, which we project outwards onto other queers in a variety of different guises- but always with generous doses of contempt and blame. So whether that be effeminophobia or self-righteousness or gender essentialism, there are always these incredibly unhealthy attitudes that circulate in queer circles, usually at the expense of queer solidarity, usually for the sake of exceptionalism. Stereotypes are very dangerous, and it breaks my heart to watch how they wreak havoc on the communities and identities of the marginalized people upon whom they reflect.

Banjee
05-28-2011, 03:50 PM
Yes Yuki! Everything you just said AND I'd like to add that the lack of solidarity between gays and lesbians where I live really fucking pisses me off. All the gay newspapers, regional magazines and events are almost all exclusively gay- male centered.

EnjoyJoy
05-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Ah, many things... lately the lack of a middle ground when you first come out to someone, even if you get a "good" reaction, between the total ackwardness of getting asked if you have a girlfriend and answering "no, I'm gay" and then people walking on eggshells for the rest of the conversation... *sigh* and the... eh, pity party. Yeah, thanks for the hug and your kind words, as well as your weird questions, but I don't have a terminal illness, thank you very much.

Why can't it be more like "oh, ok" and have the conversation carry on as normal, as if I had just said "green is my favourite colour".

Lathan
05-28-2011, 05:37 PM
. . . you like green?



Oooookay then.

Faust
05-28-2011, 08:38 PM
I get really frustrated with how homogenized, segregated and misogynist the gay male scene is here in the U.S. Also, gays and lesbians lack of gay history is embarrassing. I realize that it's not something taught in schools, but, shouldn't we take an interest in how gay identity has been shaped through the years? The struggles of gay folks before us? Poppers, fisting and Francois Sagat they know all about. but, Edmund White? Audre Lorde? Jonathan Katz? Kate Bornstein? The hateful Anita Bryant? Stonewall? The AIDS quilt? Do we have to wait until some straight actor decides to be "heroic" and portray a historical gay figure to take an interest in our history?

Yes!

I think for myself, I've always really hated the idea that I have to be one way or another. Outside of the gay community, strangely enough, nobody cares whether I'm masculine or feminine. Most people recognize that I'm both and don't look at me based on sexuality at all. But most of the gay men (and women) I've met seem to want to pigeon-hole me into one or the other- or themselves. Why can't you just let yourself gravitate towards whichever balance of the two is really you?

The thing that really bothers me the most of all though is how much of club culture suggests that unless I've got a big cock, my body is so effortlessly in great shape, and I truly look the part, that I'm worth nothing. A lot of my self-esteem issues growing up that I still deal with stem from that. The way in which a lot of gay men target others that aren't "up to snuff" is catty, and sometimes downright cannibalistic. I hope I'm making sense; I'm not trying to bash club culture because I know there are plenty of good facits to it, I've just had a lot of bad experiences that still cut deep.

Waylon
06-02-2011, 02:13 AM
^ This.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
06-02-2011, 03:40 AM
I think for myself, I've always really hated the idea that I have to be one way or another. Outside of the gay community, strangely enough, nobody cares whether I'm masculine or feminine. Most people recognize that I'm both and don't look at me based on sexuality at all. But most of the gay men (and women) I've met seem to want to pigeon-hole me into one or the other- or themselves. Why can't you just let yourself gravitate towards whichever balance of the two is really you?

Though I hardly think it's unique to gay communities (I'm sure it's resultant from larger issues of woman-hating, &co&co), my biggest complaint is something along these lines, too: that absolute terror of gay male femininity that I've encountered in the 'scene.' It's always been a fraught issue for me, but oddly enough, became so much more pointed when I moved from the south to the allegedly 'liberal' 'queer positive' Northeast. I swear I've never seen a gay male community more invested in conventional masculinity. (Not to mention, these ideas of masculinity/femininity are purely rooted in superficial/surface qualities.)

Admittedly, I'm of the mind that gender is first and foremost a culturally- and historically-specific ideal and I play with it more than most--which I'm happy with in terms of my own self-presentation--but I sometimes hit the point where I feel I'd either (a) have more luck dating curious straight men; or (b) do myself a favor by buzzing my hair, buffing-up, and wearing baseball caps. The only dudes it seems I can get attention from are daddies who see me as some kind of androgynous Lolita. But then I snap out of it, and remember that I'll always feel more content with my decisions if I'm making them for myself instead of anticipating the reactions or attractions of some other asshole.

Someone said it better earlier in the thread, though: sometimes marginalized communities just seem to have the most skillfully honed methods of policing their own 'people.' I don't think this is tied to being gay/queer/ABCBBQ, but the stratification of these communities does seem to make some kind of ripple in the larger patterns of how we perceive ourselves and are perceived by more mainstream venues.

MyNameisWarts
06-03-2011, 11:23 PM
I echo Mario's sentiment, especially the part about misogyny among gay men. There's this weird assumption that you have to want to fuck women in order to be a misogynist, but there's a whole gay brand of misogyny that is just as objectifying and belittling. As much as I hate when women are like "I need a gay friend! I love gay friends, it's like you get to shop and talk about girl stuff, only it's technically a GUY!!" +all that bullshit, it goes both ways. There are the gay men who like to dress women up like they are dolls, the ones who think that because they're gay they can call women filthy cunts, bitches and whores and be immune to the usual criticism of those terms, the ones who think they can put their hands all over a woman's body because they technically don't want to fuck her. I've seen unwilling women get groped by drunk gay guys and then basically told to shut up when they call them on it. That type of thing is almost, potentially more insidious than misogyny and sexism coming from straight men. I also find that a lot of straight men expect a lot less in terms of women looking a certain way than gay men do. Maybe it is just my friends, but lots of straight guys I know like women who look natural, who don't have breast implants and don't look like lollipops, whereas gay men can be the harshest critics of women's bodies.

Another thing, there is a shocking amount of racism in the (white) gay community and a stunning lack of awareness and insight into how these are same modes of thinking that contribute to the oppression of Queer people. Even in "ultra liberal" places like San Francisco. I can't even tell you how many white gay people I have heard complain about homophobia in the black community as though they are ultimately the most victimized by it. News flash: I am pretty sure that the homophobia which festers in communities of color mostly impacts QUEER PEOPLE OF COLOR. I actually had two conversations in one week in SF last year that pretty much had my jaw on the floor, which went something like this:

Gay dude: I'm sooo sick of Black dudes and all the homophobia in the Black community. Also the black voter turnout for Obama is what caused Prop 8 to pass.
Me: Actually that has been totally discredited. If you took away the entirety of the black vote in California, Prop 8 still would have passed.
Gay dude: No way, that is not true.
Me: Do your homework.
Gay dude: Psh, you do your homework.
Me: ...
Gay dude: Anyway, any time I go to a bar in Oakland these huge black guys scare me and give me the creeps.
Me: Really. What is that they do to you?
Gay dude: They don't DO anything, you can just tell they hate you.
Me: Huh! Maybe you should reflect on how you might be interpreting ambiguous behaviors as hostile, when they're not. We all have prejudices that distort how we see people.
Gay dude: I am NOT a racist. I have tons of black friends. Also I totally went into one of those bars and found a hot little black boy that I call up when I want to hook up.
Me: Oh okay, I can see clearly now that you are most definitely prejudice-free, since you're willing to stick it in a "hot little black boy." Good for you.

There's also a shocking amount of transphobia among gays in my experience. And yes, lack of awareness of queer history, regional or not.

Jed
06-06-2011, 11:39 PM
I have just injured myself by opening a bottle of beer. There are people who can do this with their teeth. This is leading me to reflect on how disconnected I am from American white working-class culture. I listen to audiobooks of Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky on my iPod when I'm not listening to NPR in my Prius. I can chat intelligently about the politics of the European Union and of most individual European countries (and I have visited many of them, some more than once). I can chat up a guy in three languages. My interests range from urban planning to the history of Christian liturgy. But the one thing I cannot, cannot do is open a bottle of beer without slicing my finger open.

It's not that I come from an upper middle-class background (I don't) or that I'm particularly precious (I'm not; after my undergraduate degree, I took a back-breaking job in Alaska processing fish). But try as I might, I just can't hack being one of Sarah Palin's Real Americans. I can't master the elementary skills necessary for entry into that group of people, and it's starting to worry me, because I fear it's congenital. I can barely change a flat tire, and I certainly can't change the oil of my car. I can't play football, and I can't play poker. The list goes on. Is this because I'm a queer or what? Should I just stop trying?

MyNameisWarts
06-07-2011, 12:21 AM
What?

Partisan
06-07-2011, 12:32 AM
I don't know about all that, but you should definitely get a bottle opener.

fox in socks
06-07-2011, 10:18 AM
I echo Mario's sentiment, especially the part about misogyny among gay men. There's this weird assumption that you have to want to fuck women in order to be a misogynist, but there's a whole gay brand of misogyny that is just as objectifying and belittling. As much as I hate when women are like "I need a gay friend! I love gay friends, it's like you get to shop and talk about girl stuff, only it's technically a GUY!!" +all that bullshit, it goes both ways. There are the gay men who like to dress women up like they are dolls, the ones who think that because they're gay they can call women filthy cunts, bitches and whores and be immune to the usual criticism of those terms, the ones who think they can put their hands all over a woman's body because they technically don't want to fuck her. I've seen unwilling women get groped by drunk gay guys and then basically told to shut up when they call them on it. That type of thing is almost, potentially more insidious than misogyny and sexism coming from straight men. I also find that a lot of straight men expect a lot less in terms of women looking a certain way than gay men do. Maybe it is just my friends, but lots of straight guys I know like women who look natural, who don't have breast implants and don't look like lollipops, whereas gay men can be the harshest critics of women's bodies.
interesting. this is the first time i have ever heard/read anyone articulate this, although i admit, its not like ive done extensive searching. when i first figured out i was in to everybody and was acting on said thoughts, i sought like-minded folk. as a identity-seeking 20-something, it's always nice to be on the fringe with someone else. i never experienced or observed such shitty behavior from "adults" like ever. i think it was explained to me something like "im part of this marginalized group (gay) that has always gotten shit on, so im bitchy/catty/misogynistic/cruel as part of my defensiveness". oh. ok. entitlement. got it. it was very disappointing. luckily, i didn't run into that as rampantly in the lesbian contingent, although there was a fair share of "this way or the highway" shit there too. luckily, i made it through that time relatively unjaded and unscathed, but i had a lot of support in my journey of sexual self-discovery. clearly, many don't have that benefit. i don't know if its self-loathing, or if it's a power trip thing, or what. all i know, is it's shitty, disrespectful behavior and only serves to polarize within and beyond the lgbt community. IMO anyway. i appreciate the candidness about that. and i appreciate that someone else(s) sees it as vile as it is.

gyabou
06-11-2011, 02:04 PM
I agree, but the problem there is that "gay history" is still a nebulous concept. Your examples are all from one country, and it's likely that even if you asked someone else in your area with an interest in queer history they'd construct an almost entirely different timeline highlighting different figures. It'd be nice for more people to be inquisitive, but it would also be nice if that inquisitive nature was rewarded with easier access to resources about LGBT history and issues (this is still an issue for many), as well as resources and oral histories that were wider in scope.

In my archives class this spring, one of my classmates did a paper on (and presented on) LGBT archives. It was pretty interesting, even though I didn't entirely agree with his argument (that archivists should stop positing themselves as neutral actors and shying away from the concept of them as "builders" of histories through their archives -- though I do think archivists definitely overdo the concept of neutrality and objectivity, which are pretty meaningless terms anyway, I also don't think that themed archives necessarily indicate that they are pushing an "agenda", just that they are preserving and collecting information that might otherwise be ignored or lost ... DIGRESSION).

So here's a couple of the archives he talked about:
http://www.onearchives.org/
http://www.gerberhart.org/
http://gcam.org/
http://www.lagna.org.uk/

Waylon
06-12-2011, 03:08 AM
It just occurred to me that the title I gave this thread isn't quite what I was going for. I now think it should be, "What bugs you about LGBT culture?" 'Cause, you know...I love being queer, but there are many aspects of the culture that really annoy me.

other pete
06-12-2011, 10:42 AM
'what bugs you about OTHER queers'? ;)

Whappo
06-12-2011, 07:23 PM
'Who are the good queers and who are the bad queers?'

gyabou - that's really interesting, thanks! I was considering LGBT issues in libraries for a potential dissertation topic. I've recently added a few more subscriptions on LIS-LINK down the services to minorities route.

Andreas
06-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Some of you must be hanging with some awful gay people... My gay friends are not perfect but I've never detected any blatant misogyny or racism. Granted, I'm not in the US, so racism here (while just as live and kicking) looks a bit different.

I do find the fancier gay clubs in Stockholm pretty up-tight though, with a frightening focus on looks and nothing else. I also hate how much of the dating culture has moved to hook-up sites on the web. Gay clubs in smaller towns have a hard time surviving here because fewer people go to them, especially guys. So many seem content just cruising for sex on the net when they're in the mood rather than actually going out and meeting people face to face.

Jed
06-14-2011, 08:45 PM
I have a problem with gift givers, bug chasers, those with prolapsed anuses, and fags who sleep with married men knowingly.

Whappo
06-14-2011, 09:06 PM
I have a problem with gift givers, bug chasers, those with prolapsed anuses, and fags who sleep with married men knowingly.
Ugh, I know what you mean. In Pokemon Diamond there's a bug chaser on route 416 who uses SIX Prolapsed Anuses one after the other and just spams Curse.

Waylon
06-14-2011, 09:20 PM
I have a problem with gift givers, bug chasers, those with prolapsed anuses, and fags who sleep with married men knowingly.

Seriously. How many unresolved issues does it take to form a community...

other pete
06-15-2011, 11:10 PM
I only sleep with married men if I'm off my fucking tits, so that doesn't count, right?

You know what I also hate? Musical Narrow Mindedness. We had people over at the weekend and, after considerable negotiation with my other half, did a playlist of 200 or so inoffensive enough tracks as backing music, then deleted the 100 least-bland. Still the very SECOND something comes on that isn't on a spectrum from the light pink of Abba to the very slightly darker pink of Alison Moyet it's "EWW WTF" o'clock. [Ani DiFranco's Little Plastic Castle, to be precise, we're not talking Professional Widow here].

Whappo
06-15-2011, 11:19 PM
Oh, I also hate the opposite! Where people give you side-eye for "occasionally" putting on the kind of music unicorns did aerobics to in the '80s. Sorry m8, let me grab something more masc or self-consciously post-camp!

And those with prolapsed anuses. God, I hate them so much with their prolapsed anuses. They're a problem. A prolapsed problem.

other pete
06-15-2011, 11:50 PM
Oh, I also hate the opposite! Where people give you side-eye for "occasionally" putting on the kind of music unicorns did aerobics to in the '80s. Sorry m8, let me grab something more masc or self-consciously post-camp!

I have never literally never experienced that. We should have parties in adjoining properties and totally rock out diversely in an adjoining corridor!

And think of me as prolapsable soda.

Whappo
06-15-2011, 11:56 PM
And think of me as prolapsable soda.
Took much cherry?

other pete
06-16-2011, 12:03 AM
http://ih0.redbubble.net/work.4118336.2.flat,550x550,075,f.genital-panic-paris-2009.jpg

Banjee
07-21-2011, 01:29 PM
Shit like this on Grindr pisses me off: I Came across this website: Douchebags of Grindr (http://www.douchebagsofgrindr.com/page/2/). There are some lolz in there ("I know how language and speech patterns work" (http://www.douchebagsofgrindr.com/2011/07/published-douche/)) , but, overall, it's kind of upsetting to see how racist and misogynists some of these guys are.

Yuki
07-21-2011, 02:27 PM
Well that was... depressing. You'd think people who experience as much marginalization would be more empathetic towards others, and yet. It always shocks me to see LGBT people who are racist, gender essentialist, etc. I know I shouldn't, but I always expect queer folks to have developed some sort of critical engagement with culture and entrenched ways of thinking, and to be perceptive enough to self-interrogate their "preferences". Le Sigh.

Cunter Fartlett
07-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Shit like this on Grindr pisses me off: I Came across this website: Douchebags of Grindr (http://www.douchebagsofgrindr.com/page/2/). There are some lolz in there ("I know how language and speech patterns work" (http://www.douchebagsofgrindr.com/2011/07/published-douche/)) , but, overall, it's kind of upsetting to see how racist and misogynists some of these guys are.

Some of those are truly baffling, but the blogger is guilty as some of those "douches" with his shallow comments. I don't understand the hate and intolerance for each other, there's room for everyone.
I don't know much about Grindr, but any hook up site is going to be a shallow pool of douche bags. No different than most singles bars.

My partner and I are considering separating after over 10 years together and I haven't dated since 2000. I am mortified. I am now in my 30's, which makes me too old. I now have a kid, which makes me unable to party and club so therefore I am boring. Looking at that Grindr website makes me want to pack it up and go home.

rattlesnakes
07-21-2011, 05:38 PM
Why do gay guys lisp?

Dan
07-22-2011, 12:16 AM
Yeah, dating/hook-up websites are quite often really fucked up. A friend and I were just talking about another thing that often comes up on those sites - you've all seen them, those profiles that go all "only interested in serious relationships, based on feelings and love! And oh, here's a close-up of my asshole!". Really, WTF?

Cunter Fartlett
07-22-2011, 02:26 AM
^^hahahahaah!!!!! I KNOW! Why do people think ANYONE wants to see their brown-eye? I don't fucking get it.

Bastien
07-22-2011, 09:44 PM
Why do gay guys lisp?

Why does anyone lisp?

rattlesnakes
07-22-2011, 10:03 PM
Why Kant Tori Read?

Banjee
07-23-2011, 12:40 AM
^ What's your point? Because, from my end, it looks like you're trolling.

Akira
07-23-2011, 09:23 AM
I stopped doing online dating because reading through those adam4adam profiles me lose faith in the gay community, humans, the universe, etc.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 05:44 PM
okay be ready for a long response. Tons bother me about being queer. First, I hate being told i have to go to the bars clubs and drag shows to fit in to the gay community. I actually do not like going out to clubs or bars. its the same people just different faces and after going all the time 9 years ago it got tired after awhile plus with my interest i dont fit into the gay scene. im a big dork/nerd and prefer playing video games, reading fantasy and horror books, watching adult animation or fantasy sci fi or horror films, reading comic books and just staying home. also listen to music. i dont like clothes shopping, im not a gym whore, im not into fashion, outdoors, or interior design. So being told having to fit into the gay scene and life style really urks me. i rather be me and be an individual. second what bugs me is how cruel mean and vicious gay men are. why do gays seem to attack their own more then straights do? apparently lots of gay men are unhappy. i cannot tell you how many men have been cruel mean vicious judgemental shallow and arrogant twoards me since i came out 11 years ago. if i had a nickle for everyone who did i could pay off our countries deficit! It took me a long time to like myself and to be comfortable being gay but the gay comunity as a whole does not know how to come together and be there for everyone. there to focused on their next sexual conquest, how their hair and body looks or who is going to win rupaul's drag race! if we just supported each other and let us be who we are regardless of size, interest and personality then i think wed all be a lot happier. this is probably why im single cause A im a geek and B im an individual who speaks his mind and doesnt put up with BS and gets judged regulary by gay men but oh well if it means ill be single so be it. but at lease i like who i am.

Banjee
07-30-2011, 06:33 PM
second what bugs me is how cruel mean and vicious gay men are. why do gays seem to attack their own more then straights do?

Whu??? I don't think I've ever heard of violent gay on gay crime. Not saying it doesn't exist, but... is this a new phenomenon??? The fact that you compare gay men being catty, bitchy or shallow to the real threat of homophobic violence is a bit socially irresponsible. Matthew Sheppard's family would certainly disagree with you. I'd rather get the cold shoulder from some gay guys for not looking like a circuit queen than getting my face bashed in by straight guys. And nobody is telling you to do anything-- going to gay clubs, bars etc. Well, I should speak for myself. No one has ever told me that I have to go anywhere to fit into the gay community. Tell me, do they visit you at home on their bikes like the Mormons do with these messages?

Banjee
07-30-2011, 06:52 PM
There is so much of the gay community that isn't going out to clubs and bars. The gay community cannot just be reduced to that, sorry. There are : Gay youth groups, gay Community Centers, within the gay Community Centers different branches of groups (HIV education, safe sex education, helping gay others that have HIV), gay reading groups, gay comic book groups, gay political groups, reading groups, traveling groups. And if you want something-- gay guys that like horror novels, then start it! you'll find people that have similar interests.

.chris
07-30-2011, 06:55 PM
There is so much of the gay community that isn't going out to clubs and bars. The gay community cannot just be reduced to that, sorry. There are : Gay youth groups, gay Community Centers, within the gay Community Centers different branches of groups (HIV education, safe sex education, helping gay others that have HIV), gay reading groups, gay comic book groups, gay political groups, reading groups, traveling groups. And if you want something-- gay guys that like horror novels, then start it! you'll find people that have similar interests.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Butch Queen Up in Pumps again.

Thank you for posting this.

Banjee
07-30-2011, 07:08 PM
I, too, got sick of club culture and wanted to meet guys that weren't part of that scene. I looked up the local gay community center and I became involved with HIV/AIDS education. I meet the most AMAZING people there of all ages, all types. I learned so much about gay history, gay culture there. I'm into comic books as well, so I hunted until I found the PRISM Comics website and found lots of like minded people there as well. Sundays, at a local gay owned restaurant, I go and have brunch-- again, there are gay folks in there teens and there are gay folks there collecting social security. My next mission is to find a good gay reading group and join the local chapter of the gay democrats here. At work, I'm the sponsor of the Gay Pride Club. My friend is in the local chapter of gay bikers. Another friend of mine is in the Gay swimmers club. There's the gay choir. There is just soooooo much, and so much left to be done.

Lathan
07-30-2011, 07:14 PM
I've worked with a gay book trade, processed donation forms, did meditation and attended gay bingo nights at my local LGBT center. Met nice people, had a lot of fun, and all very non-scene.

It was also my first exposure to the trans portion of the population, which was great. It cleared up misconceptions I had.

Overall, a good experience, but I had to go out and look for it.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 07:37 PM
when i mean attacking i dont mean violence i mean verbally attacking. riddiculing someone, going out of their way to harrass them, hurt them emotionally, slander them and even get their personal ads removed just out of spite (all of this has happened to me) and im sorry most of the gay community IS clubs bars drag and clothing and materialisitc stuff. there are a few gay geeks and nerds but not many. ive spoken to several who are partnered and they dont go out either and also find it VERY difficult to meet other gay nerds and geeks. theres not many gay groups in atlanta for me. i tried joining one for gay and lesbian geeks and they are just as bad as the stereotypical gays and lesbians. i just wish gays would rally together like african americans did to get their civil rights and so we can have ours! so to bitch queen up in pumps, i suggest living in Atlanta for awhile before making your comments then come back to me and you will sympathise more with me on my delemia! I just wish gay men were not so shallow, superficial and judgemental. everyone is different. everyone handles things and reacts to things differently and everyone has issues. news flash: disney prince charming does not exisit. im not seeking perfection im just wanting a decent understanding guy who will love me and accept me for me faults and all. i know they do exisit!

Banjee
07-30-2011, 08:01 PM
I think we're talking about two different things: your talking about why you can't find Prince Charming and I'm talking about the Gay Community which is much more than just about dating.

there is nothing inherent in "gayness"-- that is, taking it up the ass-- and bitchiness and shallowness. Lots of people, gay, straight, blacks, whites, American, European are hypocritical, judgmental and shallow. The Christians for chrissakes!!!!! People of all stripes suck.

Banjee
07-30-2011, 08:08 PM
And I do sympathize with you. Dating to find the right partner sucks. sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks. I think just about every guy or girl here, gay or straight, will agree with you and for the same reasons you pointed out.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 08:10 PM
no butch queen up in pumps im not talking just about mr right im talking about the entire gay comunity. ive never had the comunity back me or any of my friends when need be and i have several friends who are in relationships who totally agree with me about how the gay community as a whole is. i just happened to mention the mr right thing cause it did play a part. and yes the gay community is very shallow superficial and judgemental not in the dating sense. i cannot stand most gay men and the ones i am friends with do not fit into that stereotype what so ever so no your wrong my post is about gays which does link with dating but also how they treat each other in general.

Lathan
07-30-2011, 08:18 PM
Why should the gay community have your back if you cannot stand most gay men?

"Everyone is different"? What about the whole of the gay community that you judge to be judgmental?



I certainly don't mean to jump on you but you seem to contradict yourself. I hope you find your place/peace. It's out there.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 08:25 PM
um im not being contradictory but i always have the gay comunitys back. i said i cant stand most that doesnt mean i still wont fight for them even though they wont fight for me! and you can be different as long as your not a prick or a judgemental cruel mean asshole! so im all about people about being different but the mean uncalled for they treat gays for no warrented reason is where i have a problem! so i dont judge gays unless they give me a reason to and thats a pretty good reason. them judging me is completely wrong and unwarrented cause they do it for the wrong reasons. so im not contradicting anything!

Banjee
07-30-2011, 08:31 PM
i said i cant stand most that doesnt mean i still wont fight for them even though they wont fight for me! !

Who exactly do you think it is that is trying to pass anti-hate legislation in your state? who do you think are the people working to repeal DOMA and who successfully repelled DODA? Who do you think is out there in Georgia trying to get Gay Marriage passed? What do you mean the gay community is not "fighting for you"?

A simple google search turned up Georgia Equality (http://www.georgiaequality.org/about/). That's who.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 08:38 PM
but im talking about the assholes and pricks! thats mostly who ive met. ive yet to meet the good gays the ones fighting for me the ones who are nice understanding and not judgemental. im going by what i know and what ive encountered. once i encounter the good nice gays then ill change my opinion.

Lathan
07-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Okay. Good luck with that.

Again, I hope you find your peace.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 09:23 PM
i found peace. im happy with who i am. im just expressing my dislike and opinion for a lot of the gay community. doesnt mean i dont have peace!

Corey Haim
07-30-2011, 09:46 PM
:rolleyes:

MyNameisWarts
07-30-2011, 09:55 PM
Yikes.

geminidreamatl30
07-30-2011, 10:22 PM
why yikes? i came here for support and i get ridiculed! i see nothings changed. lol

Corey Haim
07-30-2011, 10:30 PM
yes, it's ALL OUR FAULT.

other pete
07-30-2011, 11:45 PM
why yikes? i came here for support and i get ridiculed! i see nothings changed. lol

Thing is, a lot of the things that annoy you annoy other people here too, and many of us have talked about it in this thread, but you seem to have decided that what you've encountered and disliked on the commercial scene (which again, a lot of us have discussed above) is the entirety of gay life and community. It's possible to dislike a lot of that, or even all of that, without insulting everyone, which is what you made it sound like you were doing.

ebby
07-31-2011, 12:03 AM
Oh hay, I brought along a brush so we can paint every LGBT person with it!

Honestly, nothing annoys me more than someone who will piss and moan about how awful the lgbt community is, and then proceed to do sweet fuck all to try and make their community better. Volunteer. Set up groups. Look further than the bars and clubs. Or find the bars and clubs that are friendly.

I may despise the local gay bar here, but one of the ones in Dublin is the warmes, friendliest, most welcoming place I've ever had a pint in. Another one is the bitchiest, most looks obsessed place I've ever been. There is diversity even within the lgbt community, as surprising as that may seem.

The best interactions I've had with other lgbt folk have been in doing amateur drama organised through the lgbt student society; through volunteering with a youth service setting up a lgbt youth group; setting up the trans support group here in my city because there was nothing for that community and I had the skills they needed; through putting together a drag performance with a drag queen and 8 dancers to perform at a big annual competition that is run completely voluntarily and raises thousands every year for HIV/AIDS charities. I have friends who decided to run a sean nós/Irish trad night in a gay bar because there wasn't something like that and they wanted something like that. There are hill walking groups, swimming groups... jeez, just about a group aimed at lgbt folk for every interest you could imagine. And if there isn't, then it's not too hard to set one up. There's a group that meets in Dublin irregularly to sketch - they show up, they draw stuff, they hang out and socialise. Awesome.

If you don't like what is on offer in your community, then take ownership of your part in that community, and help shape it to better reflect the diversity within it. Whether you are running an irregular club night aimed at alternative music, or running a community support group, or organising a group of lgbt nerds to discuss comic books, or volunteering with the lgbt community centre, or getting involved in equality campaigns - there is a wealth of options open to people who find that the status quo isn't really doing it for them.

There will always be bitchy queens, there will always be lovely people too, there will always be insecure people lashing out until they find their own sense of security from somewhere that isn't about putting other people down. That is just a part of life for anyone - lgbt or not.

Tarring the entire lgbt community with the same brush doesn't do anyone any favours, to be honest, and what you don't perhaps realise is that in doing so, you are insulting the other posters here on this forum who are a part of the lgbt community and work to make that community better reflect them.

MyNameisWarts
07-31-2011, 02:09 AM
Some % of queer people are going to be not worth your time, roughly the same % of the non queers that are no good. But on the whole there's a lot to appreciate about queer folks no matter where you are, first and foremost that you will not be turned away, ostracized, or attacked because of your sexuality. On a larger scale, a whole bunch of gay people "have your back" whether you know it and appreciate it or not. People working tirelessly to make a better world for you to live in. Soooo....maybe step one is to check your own expectations and also what you're putting out in terms of supporting other people and "having their back" so to speak. Talking smack about your community in such a whiny, entitled way is not a great start.

Also it's hard for me to stomach the whole "I hate the bar/club scene, gays are all just materialistic/superficial blah blah" - I know this is a common complaint, but gay and queer people come from all walks... there are annoying club/bar crawlers in the straight community too so maybe you just need different friends...I don't know any gay people who are club/party obsessed because that's not what I surround myself with. Gay people are academics and athletes and musicians and people on welfare and business owners and republicans and parents and teachers and janitors and stock brokers etc etc etc and fucking 98% of them aren't part of the club scene. If you live in a place like Atlanta and you don't know that, then you don't get out enough or you have the wool pulled over your eyes.

MyNameisWarts
07-31-2011, 02:21 AM
PS, google + 12 minutes =

http://www.emory.edu/CAMPUS_LIFE/LGBTOFFICE/
http://www.filmfestivalworld.com/festival/Atlanta_Gay_Lesbian_Film_Festival/
http://outonfilm.org/
http://www.atlantagaychamber.org/
http://www.outlantacon.org/ (!!!!)
http://www.agmchorus.org/
http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/us_georgia.htm

etc x 1000

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 03:05 AM
if you anyone thinks i was insulting anyone then you totally read my post and comments wrong. i did not meant to insult anyone i was just expressing my frustrations. and cold press olives its not all your fault. some if its no ones fault. none if its my fault cause i didnt do anything to warrent this kind of treatment but to anyone who feels im insulting anyone you are dead wrong and i did not mean to come across that way so i apologize. its just in the 11 years ive been out of the closet, ive yet to meet a decent man worth my time. so when your only used to meeting and dealing with the bottom of the barrell and the pricks and judgemental assholes you tend to look at everyone that way which is very sad and unfortunate and i certainly do not want to do that. im just waiting to find a guy worth my time. so again if i insulted anyone i did not mean to. im really a nice caring sincere guy whos just tired of the bullshit and drama. and mynameiswarts outlantacon is not my thing ive been before and its very strategy gaming heavy and they have topics im not really into, tried gay churches not for me, very uncomfortable, atlanta gay mans chorus...moving on....but thanks for your help! i appreciate it!

MyNameisWarts
07-31-2011, 03:18 AM
Haha, okay. I'm not saying that the links I found are the solution to your problem, but you're pigeonholing the members of your community, which is in one of the largest cities in that area. The point I was trying to make was that with minimal effort, I came across a shitload of queer related things that have nothing to do with what you're complaining about. I can't help but wonder if the problem is that on some level you WANT some kind of chiseled clubbing hard body but feel like it's off limits to you. If that's not the case, then the solution to your problem is as simple as avoiding those types of people.

I dunno. Good luck finding a queer nerd who is not so strategy gaming heavy!

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 03:23 AM
no i dont care what body type the person is i just want him to be real, sincere, nice, compassionate, understanding, loving and caring. he doesnt have to be a gay nerd but that is something im heavily into. fandom and sci fi fantasy horror except im not into the gaming side. and trust me ive tried tons of groups and orginizations. i know Atlanta is a large city and has a large gay comunity but the last couple of years its just gotten worse and ive spoken to several other people who totally agree with me. including my best friend who is partnered. im just being real but i do appreciate you giving me those links. some i never heard of so ill check a couple out :) but sometimes you cant help avoding those types and size or not there going to be pricks. so im just waiting to find a decent guy regardless of his waist size and looks who will like me for me and not judge me for me.

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 03:27 AM
so to bitch queen up in pumps, i suggest living in Atlanta for awhile before making your comments then come back to me and you will sympathise more with me on my delemia!

seriously, this statement irritates the hell out of me. i've been living in atlanta since august of last year and there is PLENTY to do here. PLENTY. and mario, butch queen up in pumps, doesn't need to live here in order to understand your situation and empathize with you. ridiculous.


and mynameiswarts outlantacon is not my thing ive been before and its very strategy gaming heavy and they have topics im not really into, tried gay churches not for me, very uncomfortable, atlanta gay mans chorus...moving on....but thanks for your help! i appreciate it!

are you kidding me? you seem to have unrealistic high expectations of what the gay community in atlanta needs to offer you. and your "but thanks for your help! i appreciate it!" comes off as insincere. but maybe i'm wrong. and as was said earlier, good luck with your search.

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 03:52 AM
wow cold press olives you sure are coming off as an asshole for no warrented reason. i was being VERY sincere in thanking him. i started checking out his links actually. and yes maybe my expectations are high but there is no reason at all to be a prick or a judgemental asshole to anyone when they dont deserve it. i certaintly dont. so im sorry you feel im being insincere but this is another example of gay men wrongly judging me. and i was born in Atlanta and been back here since 1994 so i know the city well and have seen it change badly. and the things to do comment, again is the stereotyical gay stuff. so you can say im ridiculous all day long and if you dont like me and want to wrongly judge me and think im this terrible person when im not, please feel free to block me. theres no law that says you have to respond to me and be a prick!

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 04:07 AM
good god, you're REALLY annoying. and you have horrible reading comprehension skills.

and that's not me being judgmental. that's me stating the obvious.

Blake
07-31-2011, 04:12 AM
I'm going to be a "gay bitch" and also state his spelling his atrocious.

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 04:26 AM
lmao i didnt know this was a spelling contest! apparently spelling is a big deal for gay men since they are the only ones who have a problem with it! how sad is this? i come on here to say what bugs me about being queer and here it is being pricks right in my face so i guess im right then about gay men since you guys are showing me exactly what ive been complaining about! looks like ill have to block someone else.

Frangipani
07-31-2011, 05:26 AM
hahahaha oh wow.

SMMY
07-31-2011, 05:44 AM
lmao i didnt know this was a spelling contest! apparently spelling is a big deal for gay men since they are the only ones who have a problem with it! how sad is this? i come on here to say what bugs me about being queer and here it is being pricks right in my face so i guess im right then about gay men since you guys are showing me exactly what ive been complaining about! looks like ill have to block someone else.


ok, which former poster were you at @? And if blocking all the posters here who annoy you becomes an issue for you, contact admin. I'm sure they could help you out. They have this thing called "banning" that sounds like it would be exactly what you are looking for to help you out. That way you won't have to converse with anybody here you deem unpleasant. It will make your unforumzed experience so much less upsetting. HTH. :)

Owen
07-31-2011, 06:39 AM
You know what amazes me? When people tell their problems in life and you realize that they come across those problems in EVERY situation in their life. They make large generalizations, insulting people in the process and then don't seem to get it when people get irked with them. Even when they say things like "yet ANOTHER example of gay men wrongly judging me."

How many examples do you need until you figure out the common link in each and every one of those situations? Hrmm...

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:04 AM
thanks for the good advice smmy i just added another person to my block list with a total of 3. hopefully it wont go any higher. apparently like my family people love to wrongly blame me for stuff thats not my fault so i will just put them on ignore like i do with my family. lol.

SMMY
07-31-2011, 08:17 AM
thanks for the good advice smmy i just added another person to my block list with a total of 3. hopefully it wont go any higher. apparently like my family people love to wrongly blame me for stuff thats not my fault so i will just put them on ignore like i do with my family. lol.

I here Siberia is quite lovely in spring. And so remote!

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:21 AM
lmao too funny. apparently people dont like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion cause my reputation/approval rating is now in the red and i just got back on here yesterday. im really a great guy and yet again im on another message board having to block members. so sad....

SMMY
07-31-2011, 08:25 AM
lmao too funny. apparently people dont like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion cause my reputation/approval rating is now in the red and i just got back on here yesterday. im really a great guy and yet again im on another message board having to block members. so sad....

Serious question: what was your username at @fourms?

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:27 AM
Why do you want to know SMMY? and i dont want everyone knowing my name from over there. besides i didnt post much anyway.

wout
07-31-2011, 08:30 AM
most of the gay community IS clubs bars drag and clothing and materialisitc stuff. there are a few gay geeks and nerds but not many.

So there are only two groups of gays??? Wow, I never knew that.


news flash: disney prince charming does not exisit.
He does, but I'm already married, sorry :(


im not seeking perfection im just wanting a decent understanding guy who will love me and accept me for me faults and all. i know they do exisit!

And here is where I get serious: maybe if you would stop categorising the gays you meet you'd be able to find this person easier and faster. From what I've read in this thread, it seems your own preconceptions and judgemental ideas* are blinding you. Now I don't know how much of that shimmers through in your irl-interaction with new people but it can sure be a downer to people.

* (flat-out calling gay men judgemental is quite ironic, no?)


but im talking about the assholes and pricks! thats mostly who ive met. ive yet to meet the good gays the ones fighting for me the ones who are nice understanding and not judgemental. im going by what i know and what ive encountered. once i encounter the good nice gays then ill change my opinion.

See? That really doesn't sound like an open approach. You say you've yet to meet the good ones. I think it might have been very well possible you've already met them but your attitude and high expectations drives them off or interprets them wrongly. You want a super-hero gay guy to fight for you, the underdog..? Eh...

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 08:32 AM
apparently people dont like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion cause my reputation/approval rating is now in the red and i just got back on here yesterday.

ummm, it's not that "people don't like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion." the reason your reputation is already in the red probably has something to do with how whiny and annoying your tone comes across in your posts. and maybe your lack of using paragraphs. and i'm also thinking your persecution complex. MAYBE. ALLEGEDLY. i could be wrong about your first impression here, just maybe!


im really a great guy and yet again im on another message board having to block members.

are you really a great guy? i don't believe you. PROVE IT.


so sad....

yes, all of your posts are, i don't disagree with you there.

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:33 AM
whatever....im not going to change who i am cause i did nothing wrong.

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 08:38 AM
http://blogs.amctv.com/breaking-bad/Charles_Baker_325x200_EP211_384.jpg

YO, MAN! WHATEVER!

wout
07-31-2011, 08:42 AM
whatever....im not going to change who i am cause i did nothing wrong.

And neither did the others... Stop seeing things so black and white, the world is not divided into 'people who like me' and 'people who don't'!
And if you're not willing to change at all through interactions with other people then, well, good luck in life!

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:44 AM
i dont see things in black and white and im sick and tired of being attacked when im not doing anything wrong here!! im not a bad person yet your treating me like i am! what do i have to do to show you im not a bad person?

SMMY
07-31-2011, 08:45 AM
whatever....im not going to change who i am cause i did nothing wrong.

That's right! Stay strong for the last group who face social discrimination, misanthropes. Hermit power!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gglhv-aGCag

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 08:50 AM
@wout your basicly telling me to be someone im not. my social interactions with people is fine. i have tons of friends all love me. the problem is whenever i go online or a message boards or chats and i try to explain myself i always get attacked when i did nothing to deserve it. i have every right to feel the way i do towards gay men when they are the ones who have always started in on me first and always wrongly judge me and think im someone im not. i never get any support any kind of positive comments or interactions online with anyone and i dont do anything to warent it. so im just expressing my frustration and being punished for it. im not saying all gay men are bad just the ones ive encountered. im not insulting anyone just telling people my experiences with the gay men ive encountered. i do not know any of you and do not have any right to judge you or claim your something your not all i was doing was telling you my experiences.

Waylon
07-31-2011, 09:06 AM
^ Just what God needs, one more victim.

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 09:07 AM
seriously: Why do we Crucify our selves everyday?

SMMY
07-31-2011, 09:10 AM
seriously: Why do we Crucify our selves everyday?

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmct4tZajT1qivwwwo1_500.gif

Waylon
07-31-2011, 09:10 AM
o____o

geminidreamatl30
07-31-2011, 09:35 AM
ok seriously im ending all of this now. i want to have a good reputation before this goes any further so im starting over from scratch cause this is utterly ridiculous! so starting a new.

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 09:36 AM
quitter. :rolleyes:

Ryan
07-31-2011, 09:50 AM
It's obvious that people here are leaving you negative reputation because they love buying new clothes, hitting the gym, then doing some poppers and heading to the club. But that's the LGBT board for you. The nerdy, non-clubbing gays are hiding in the Gaming sub-forum. Other places to avoid on the forum: Health & Fitness sub-forum, Glamour Puss sub-forum, the Project Runway and RuPaul's Drag Race threads, and any OMA thread involving a pop diva. Godspeed.

Corey Haim
07-31-2011, 09:55 AM
It's obvious that people here are leaving you negative reputation because they love buying new clothes, hitting the gym, then doing some poppers and heading to the club.

woot-woot! PAR-TAY!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgbiovO4C51qf8yek.gif

HOLLA!

ebby
07-31-2011, 12:22 PM
lmao too funny. apparently people dont like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion cause my reputation/approval rating is now in the red and i just got back on here yesterday. im really a great guy and yet again im on another message board having to block members. so sad....

All I'm going to say about this, is that if you're finding the same outcomes any time you are interacting with different groups of people online, then perhaps the problem lies with how you are communicating online.



@wout your basicly telling me to be someone im not. my social interactions with people is fine. i have tons of friends all love me. the problem is whenever i go online or a message boards or chats and i try to explain myself i always get attacked when i did nothing to deserve it. i have every right to feel the way i do towards gay men when they are the ones who have always started in on me first and always wrongly judge me and think im someone im not. i never get any support any kind of positive comments or interactions online with anyone and i dont do anything to warent it. so im just expressing my frustration and being punished for it. im not saying all gay men are bad just the ones ive encountered. im not insulting anyone just telling people my experiences with the gay men ive encountered. i do not know any of you and do not have any right to judge you or claim your something your not all i was doing was telling you my experiences.

And this just further cements that. You wonder why people are pointing out your spelling, punctuation, and other problem with how your write your posts? It's because how we write is how we represent ourselves online. You might be lovely in person, but if you can't express yourself well in writing, then you're going to have a little more trouble interacting with people entirely through a written medium.

I do recommend making the effort to try and use proper punctuation, spelling, and these things called paragraphs. People reading on a screen have a much lower tolerance for blocks of text, and using shorter paragraphs helps to make your posts much more user/reader friendly.

What I see in all of your posts is a big block of text, badly spelled and punctuated. That is all we have to go on for interacting with you in this medium, and it does you no favours if you're trying to represent yourself well.



And here is where I get serious: maybe if you would stop categorising the gays you meet you'd be able to find this person easier and faster. From what I've read in this thread, it seems your own preconceptions and judgemental ideas* are blinding you. Now I don't know how much of that shimmers through in your irl-interaction with new people but it can sure be a downer to people.

[...]

See? That really doesn't sound like an open approach. You say you've yet to meet the good ones. I think it might have been very well possible you've already met them but your attitude and high expectations drives them off or interprets them wrongly. You want a super-hero gay guy to fight for you, the underdog..? Eh...


Wout is wise, you should really take what he has to say into consideration.

fox in socks
07-31-2011, 01:09 PM
whatever....im not going to change who i am cause i did nothing wrong.maybe this is your problem. seriously. spend less time rationalizing your behavior and, like ebs and b-quip suggested, take some ownership in your role as a member of the lgbt community. things havent gotten better in lgbt, or any community, by just whining and waiting for society to realize "you've done nothing wrong". shit or get off the pot mate.

your rigidity and martyrdom scream immaturity. your user name suggests you might be 30, but you post like a 3 year old brat not getting your way. if youre always the victim and you do nothing wrong, you probably have very little to offer a relationship in terms of mutual goals and compromise anyway.

Lathan
07-31-2011, 03:21 PM
lmao too funny. apparently people dont like you speaking your mind and giving your opinion
Exactly! You don't like people speaking their mind and giving their opinions. Makes it tough to have a conversation. No wonder you keep running into trouble.


Maybe you should start a blog and disable the comments? That way there's no risk of people replying with things you don't like?

Whappo
07-31-2011, 06:33 PM
Hey soldadreamat33, I know a guy who is pretty much just what you are looking for, lives in Atlanta too.

He'd think you were an asshole though, so I'll leave it at that.

Frangipani
07-31-2011, 06:46 PM
Im coming to realize gay community is plagued with Nice Guys™ ("...but im a NICE GUY i deserve better with little to no output of my own. people are so shallow, now please come blow me while i play video games on a bean bag chair") too.
Well I'll BE...

Whappo
07-31-2011, 06:55 PM
Can you get to Orlando, jimllfixitdream? If this guy (http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/orl/740493470.html) is still single, you may have found your Disney prince.

uncanny hats
07-31-2011, 07:01 PM
Im coming to realize gay community is plagued with Nice Guys™ ("...but im a NICE GUY i deserve better with little to no output of my own. people are so shallow, now please come blow me while i play video games on a bean bag chair") too.
Well I'll BE...
Oh Silly-face! That's humanity! Everyone thinks they are special! Esp. the tortured ones. (except for me, so... I am nice and everyone does hate me. I don't need to have blow jobs, I'll take tens and twenties, too.)

toriMODE
07-31-2011, 07:44 PM
Reading the output from Gemini left me with a headache, and now I'm seeing cross-eyed. Gemini, spell-check is your friend!

spyk_
07-31-2011, 07:47 PM
lmao i didnt know this was a spelling contest! apparently spelling is a big deal for gay men since they are the only ones who have a problem with it!

I just have to bring this post up again because it's irked me so much. When you learn English at school, it's to enable you to communicate clearly and express yourself intelligibly. It isn't to aide you in a spelling contest. An internet forum is as good a place as any to practise at least passable spelling and gramar, just because you're typing rather than writing doesn't change the fact that - particularly during a heated debate/discussion - people need to be able to get your point easily without having to stare at a large block of text that doesn't make much sense. Besides, I really don't get what you're trying to argue here in the first place.

Lord Rask of Trevdale
08-01-2011, 12:29 AM
Is it awful to point out that you spelled "grammar" wrong? :)

-Jacob.

Whappo
08-01-2011, 12:44 AM
And I don't think "aide" is correct either, "aid" being the verb. But I could be wrong!

The important part is "at least passable spelling and grammar" though. I can't claim to have anything even resembling a strong grasp of good grammar, but the point is to at least be intelligible, as Spyk says. There's a difference between a few typos or mistakes and a wall of text with no punctuation.

Lord Rask of Trevdale
08-01-2011, 12:45 AM
I completely agree, I was just being facetious ;)

-Jacob.

Faust
08-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Another great thread derailed. Oh, the headache...

spyk_
08-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Is it awful to point out that you spelled "grammar" wrong? :)

-Jacob.

Haha, no. There are some typos in my post. My point wasn't about perfect spelling and grammar though, it was more about clarity of communication, and I'm sure people know what I meant by 'gramar'.

other pete
08-04-2011, 12:42 AM
Gay grammer sucks.

harpsichord
08-04-2011, 08:03 AM
There are the gay men who like to dress women up like they are dolls, the ones who think that because they're gay they can call women filthy cunts, bitches and whores and be immune to the usual criticism of those terms, the ones who think they can put their hands all over a woman's body because they technically don't want to fuck her.

wow, you're an amazing writer! really, though, you summed up my feelings about misogyny within the gay community so well. it's almost like some gay men want straight women to treat them like fashion accessories because it makes them coveted and establishes the straight girl/gay bff dynamic. the gay men recognize that they're both marginalized parties, feel that they've earned the right to reappropriate misogynistic language, and are now privy to saying what's best for a woman's body (oh, honey, you shouldn't be wearing that; that makes you look fat - barf), unfair critiques, etc. it's horrifying behavior on the behalf of both parties.



Another thing, there is a shocking amount of racism in the (white) gay community and a stunning lack of awareness and insight into how these are same modes of thinking that contribute to the oppression of Queer people. Even in "ultra liberal" places like San Francisco. I can't even tell you how many white gay people I have heard complain about homophobia in the black community as though they are ultimately the most victimized by it. News flash: I am pretty sure that the homophobia which festers in communities of color mostly impacts QUEER PEOPLE OF COLOR.

i don't live in atlanta, but i see a lot of white gay people complaining about the black gay pride that is organized every year. it's like, self-segregation is a natural response to feelings of underrepresentation, disenfranchisement, abandonment, etc. gay poc obviously don't feel represented in the regular gay pride parades (hell, i'd argue anywhere really, but less so within the gay community), so organizing their own parade isn't othering, and it's certainly nothing to be against, ugh. all are welcome to attend and you're not going to be kicked out of the festivities if you're not a poc, so what's with the feelings of animus? i just don't get.

i'm a gay poc myself, and after prop 8 happened, i felt even more disconnected from the gay community because i was seeing a lot of unfair criticism of the black community. it was bullshit that the black community was being used as a scapegoat for the heinous passage of that bill. seriously, can you blame the black people that DID vote in favor of prop 8 if they don't exactly understand (or care about) your plight? i know the people voting should have the cognition to recognize that both movements mirror each other in certain ways, but if you've been going to a church all your life and believing X, reading a pamphlet about why you should do Y two weeks before the vote is going to do nothing to sway or resolve dissonance. besides that, when the fuck has the gay community largely tried to get the black community involved, other than when they need votes for something?

anyway, i'm just rambling because i can't get to sleep. i hope my post doesn't sound like i'm painting all gay men with one brush. that wasn't my intention at all.

Stone
08-13-2011, 11:17 PM
Don't know if this has been covered (I think someone mentioned it before) but the general™ musical taste in the "gay scene". Offer Nissim, Joel, some DJ from Israel, Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Black Eyed Peas... I cannot fathom why most gay guys I know (not necessarily friends or close friends) listen to all that crap. And they get slightly offended when you suggest there is a whole LOT different type of music that feels more authentic and is listenable for more than 5 minutes.

The way some guys are competitive towards each other. Again, not that my friends are like this- but there seems to be so much drama within some groups.

The misogyny has been covered but I wanted to mention it as well. On the other hand, why do straight people assume gay guys and lesbians can get along right away? In reality we have very little in common.

Speaking of lesbians... I don't understand why many of them would try to act as manly as to be aggressive and rude in public places. Last week I was at a bar and this butchy girl was picking a fight with me for no apparent reason. I just had the security guard show her the way out of the place.

Tellurium
08-15-2011, 06:33 PM
^ Forgive me if I'm just nitpicking at poor word choice, but I find it interesting that you'd say that they "try" to act that way. It seems more likely to me that they just are that way. Just like when straight guys (and gay guys and straight girls, too) act in that manner. Not that it isn't annoying as all fuck. I give you that.

Off the top of my head, what bugs me about being gay is how much of a production penetrative (anal) sex can often be. All the prep and cleaning etc. I get that gay people are sort of freed from the confining notion of a "default" sex act and that that's a pretty powerful thing which often leads to better sex, but... sometimes I'm just really lazy! I catch myself thinking "it'd be so much easier to fuck if one of us just... well... had a vagina!" You know? Just a little vagina. But still.

Corey Haim
10-10-2011, 02:09 AM
ok seriously im ending all of this now. i want to have a good reputation before this goes any further so im starting over from scratch cause this is utterly ridiculous! so starting a new.

oh hai, i saw you walking in the parade today for pride. [smirk]

Zippo
10-11-2011, 02:58 AM
I had no idea where to post this, so I guess I'll just do it in here.

I moved away from home for uni last month and have been here for exactly a month today. Recently I've realised I'm quite attracted to this guy in one of my classes. I would classify myself as straight, and this is the first time I've ever been in this situation. It doesn't worry me in the slightest... I've had a lot of LGBT friends and I would say I was relatively open-minded about sexuality. I think it's a fluid concept and I don't really like the idea of labelling different sexual orientations.

Although I've never been attracted to another guy before, I've always been open to the possibility that it could and probably would happen at some point in my life. I believe it's normal for people to stray from their orientation (homosexual people having heterosexual feelings, heterosexual people having homosexual feelings on at least a few occasions in their lives). I suppose I see it as fine for a heterosexual person to engage in homosexual acts/have homosexual fantasies or attractions/even be in a homosexual relationship, and still be able to consider themselves straight as long as it doesn't happen on a regular basis, at which point I would call myself bisexual. I've never suppressed any homosexual feelings - I've just simply never experienced them until now.

I would compare "gay", "bisexual" and "straight" to eye colour - it's easier to say your eyes are green, brown or blue. But beyond the surface level, eye colour is quite a complicated thing... the initial assumption that "brown is the dominant allele, blue is the recessive allele", is now apparently not the case and a variety of genes influence eye colour. Also, two blue-eyed parents can have a brown-eyed child, and vice versa. No two people have the exact same eyes. Blah, blah, blah. So despite it being a complicated thing, if someone asks you your eye colour, you just apply a colour label like blue/brown/green to make things easier. I find it similar to sexuality because when it comes up, instead of saying I believe it to be pointless to label your orientation because you can never predict where your feelings will lead you, or you can't discount even the possibility of being attracted to half of the world's population because of what they have between their legs... instead of saying all of this, I just say "straight". Because it's easier and I suppose that I am straight, since this is the first time I've been attracted to a guy. If this happens on a regular basis and I end up becoming attracted to men at large, as well as women, then I will say bisexual. But since this is a new experience for me and possibly the only one I will ever have of being attracted to a guy, I remain "straight" until further notice. :p

Anyway, I didn't really intend on typing all of that. I just needed to vent, I suppose. The main point of this post was, how do you go about finding out if someone is gay/bisexual? I'm not even going to ask how you would guess, because it's ridiculous to try and do that in my opinion. I know the only way to be certain is to ask. But how would I go about asking? I wouldn't like to offend him. I know it shouldn't be offensive if someone asks your orientation, since it infers that being gay or bi is a negative thing. But sadly a lot of people do feel that way and would be offended if they were straight and you asked them. Some people are also just private and would be offended at you asking personal questions like that. I don't deal with awkwardness well. I also don't do subtlety well... usually if I think something is worth saying/asking, I just do it in quite a blunt way. But because this is new to me I feel like it's a sensitive issue that I need to be more thoughtful about, rather than taking my usual approach.

EDIT: Sorry for this being stupidly long and barely coherent.

Yuki
10-11-2011, 03:27 AM
I'm having the same experience right now! I have a crush on one of my girl classmates, so I guess this means I'm going through Ye Olde College Lesbian Phase. Which is further complicated by my transgendered-ness, so that is the strangeness that is my sexual identity. It's so strange to be attracted to another woman! I've never felt such a thing before, so I feel all bizarre even just to discuss it. I'm oddly embarrassed about it though, partly because it just seems so flighty on my part.

I'm sorry I have no concrete help to give you! ;l I just wanted to share my own similar dilemma (well, not really a dilemma for me because I don't plan on acting on it). This sort of stuff really goes to show how problematic our assumptions of human sexuality as a taxonomic system really are, though, as it's so frequently liminal and indeterminate. That's another discussion, though, one that I really don't have time to get into right now. ;l

Zippo
10-12-2011, 09:42 PM
Thanks, Yuki. I can't even imagine how complicated your situation must feel! Well like I said, I think everybody goes through feelings of attraction that don't correspond with their orientation at some point. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Obviously as a male I don't know this for certain, but from what I've heard it's quite common for straight girls to have crushes on other girls. Ye Olde College Lesbian Phase indeed! ;l At least, more common than for straight men to be in the same situation. It's probably just as common amongst men as well, just that they don't like to talk about it because there's unfortunately more of a stigma attached to male homosexuality.

Ryan
10-12-2011, 10:20 PM
Your last sentence is exactly right. A lot of men are terrified of same-sex attraction because of the stigma attached to it. I know a lot of men who identify as straight but are attracted to other men to some degree. Sometimes it's purely physical, sometimes it's more. There are tons of men on Craigslist, Grindr, etc. barking on about being on the DL and looking for masculine, discreet "friends."

This is why the whole gay vs. straight thing pisses me off. Sexuality is just as varied and diverse as personalities are. No two people are alike. I don't like that so many people think it's one or the other. It's like a sliding scale. I do believe there are genuinely straight and gay people, but I'd venture to guess that a large percentage fall somewhere on the scale between the two.

Father Lucifer
10-13-2011, 10:04 PM
Thanks, Yuki. I can't even imagine how complicated your situation must feel! Well like I said, I think everybody goes through feelings of attraction that don't correspond with their orientation at some point. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Obviously as a male I don't know this for certain, but from what I've heard it's quite common for straight girls to have crushes on other girls. Ye Olde College Lesbian Phase indeed! ;l At least, more common than for straight men to be in the same situation. It's probably just as common amongst men as well, just that they don't like to talk about it because there's unfortunately more of a stigma attached to male homosexuality.

Hi W2E, first of all, as a gay guy, I think it's pretty hot that you can talk about something so personal and real. Not that it's some secret but your situation is something I've suspected for a long time about a straight guy's sexuality.

Secondly, whether this guy is gay or not, his sexuality shouldn't get in your way of getting to know him. It's better and safer not to have expectations and just maybe you'll be lucky enough to explore these feelings with him!

Good luck!

DavidIX
10-15-2011, 09:43 PM
I think that everyone would be able to relate to being slightly surprised who they're drawn to, but when it's to a gender you're not normally drawn to it's even more confusing.

Kudos for handling things with such an amazing sense of clarity!

Adam
10-16-2011, 03:50 PM
I echo the sentiment that a self-professed " straight" guy being so honest and ok with his attraction to another man us hot indeed. So much so that I wish I was in your class. Lol. Which leads me to one of the only things that annoys me about being gay, if I can even call it annoying, which is how much I find myself attracted to straight men. I know, I know. It's no different than being a straight guy and wanting girls who aren't interested, etc. But this is different. It seems sometimes that the only guys I'm EXTREMELY attracted to are straight, and I think I've found out why. Without speaking for all gay men or generalizing, it seems that deep attraction comes when I can get really close with someone, and honestly, I've always been able to have closer friendships with straight men, because the relationship has sex taken out of the equation. Sure I have a few gay friends where that is true, but mostly, when I befriend another gay guy, there seems to be the problem of one of us expecting the other to want to have sex, and when that's not true, the relationship goes no further. Why is this? I ask myself all the time. With straight guys, neither of us feel that pressure, and in the long run, after we become close, I start wanting them because I know I can't have them? I guess? And I get so mad at myself for allowing myself to have those feelings when I know they're expecting me not to. Does any of this make sense? There have become times where I've had to distance myself because it'd gotten so all-consuming and painful. I know the same can be said of any relationship where that feeling isn't reciprocated, but the fact that I know it's just because they aren't wired that way sexually makes it worse. And does that make the attraction greater? I don't know. I just know that I wish I could be more attracted to men who actually want to be sexual with other men. I dont know if its deep seated ideals of masculinity that affects me, but i can say that feminine behavior turns me off sexually. I feel that im too smart to let that affect me, but it does, and is another thing that frustrates the hell out of me. Am I really, deep down, still controlled by societal expectations and ideas of gender? Ugh. Sorry if this post is so long and rambling. Ive just been in that situation for the 100th time and had to vent. Oh, the longing. Lol.

toriMODE
10-17-2011, 12:39 AM
Well intelligence has nothing to do with physical attraction. You are attracted to what you are drawn to by the eye initially. So don't knock yourself down for that. I think that some people are attracted to what they cannot have, because they are afraid of commitment or they don't feel like they deserve happiness. Not saying that's the case with you, just throwing that thought out there.

Adam
10-17-2011, 01:50 AM
Thanks for that. I do believe I deserve to be happy, it's just that most of the time, true lust comes in the form of a straight man.

other pete
10-23-2011, 12:14 AM
...which is how much I find myself attracted to straight men. I know, I know. It's no different than being a straight guy and wanting girls who aren't interested, etc. But this is different. It seems sometimes that the only guys I'm EXTREMELY attracted to are straight, and I think I've found out why. Without speaking for all gay men or generalizing, it seems that deep attraction comes when I can get really close with someone, and honestly, I've always been able to have closer friendships with straight men, because the relationship has sex taken out of the equation...

You put that really well there, and it's absolutely a situation I've found myself in. Sure there's an element of the specifically erotic "forbidden fruit" thing, but much much more than that it is, in my experience, like being in the shoes of a straight guy who keeps being told by girls he desires that they think of him as 'brother' or (even worse!) 'true friend' - when there is a kind of immediate rapport and spark between two people, but it means something different to the two of them, the intensity of it for the unrequited person can escalate exponentially when tangled up with layers of lust and bromance.

Father Lucifer
10-30-2011, 12:04 AM
Thanks for that. I do believe I deserve to be happy, it's just that most of the time, true lust comes in the form of a straight man.

Amen to that! I'm in a happy relationship with my bf but it just takes a tall and handsome buff guy working out at gym for me to realise that I can be very lustful, as long as it is confined to my imagination... ;)

other pete
10-31-2011, 11:33 PM
rong fred

Cunter Fartlett
11-01-2011, 02:42 PM
^ Forgive me if I'm just nitpicking at poor word choice, but I find it interesting that you'd say that they "try" to act that way. It seems more likely to me that they just are that way. Just like when straight guys (and gay guys and straight girls, too) act in that manner. Not that it isn't annoying as all fuck. I give you that.

Off the top of my head, what bugs me about being gay is how much of a production penetrative (anal) sex can often be. All the prep and cleaning etc. I get that gay people are sort of freed from the confining notion of a "default" sex act and that that's a pretty powerful thing which often leads to better sex, but... sometimes I'm just really lazy! I catch myself thinking "it'd be so much easier to fuck if one of us just... well... had a vagina!" You know? Just a little vagina. But still.

You want to hear about Lazy? This may be TMI, but I haven't had anal sex (any type) since 2005! I blame The Beekeeper.

Tellurium
11-01-2011, 06:00 PM
;l Now that you mention it, there is something about the Beekeeper that makes me really want to not have sex. I wonder if it affects others similarly. Hmmmm. I smell a Masters thesis.

Also. There's more than one type of anal sex...? I feel like I might be about to learn something life-changing.

Cunter Fartlett
11-01-2011, 07:49 PM
hahaha...well, as far as neither giving nor receiving I meant. ;)

Tellurium
11-02-2011, 07:43 PM
Ah, I figured as much. But I let my imagination go crazy for a minute there, just in case. ;)

uskidsknow
11-03-2011, 09:02 PM
It bugs me that once you (self) identify as gay you're pegged that way forever. Basically, I identified as a gay male from about 14 or so, but as I've gotten older I've become much more interested in pursuing (at least sexual) relationships with women because it's something I'm aroused by. For the longest time I've only watched straight porn. At first I thought it was because the guys were "hotter," but I realized it's a little more than that. Whenever I bring this up to my friends they start laughing at me and telling me i'm some self-loathing gay. But it's really not that. It feels like there's as much backlash from the gay "community" against other members when they want to dip into hetero/bi sexuality, which I've always found so oppressive. Does anyone else understand what I'm talking about? As had been said everywhere, sexuality is fluid and not fixed. I feel like it's rarely talked about from the queer angle, but more targeted at straight identifying men/women who are interested in same-sex relations.

Faust
11-03-2011, 10:26 PM
Dude, absolutely know what you're talking about. It's always been the same for me. I don't get what's so threatening about it to other self-identified gay people.

Cunter Fartlett
11-03-2011, 10:34 PM
Yes. If a straight guy were to do that, it would be awesome. If a self identified gay man did that, it would be tragic. That ties in to the whole way of thinking that a lot of gay men have: Misogynist hetero-phobey type thinking. I see it a lot and it turns me off. I know it comes from years and years of oppression most likely, to where being gay becomes sort of an exclusive club that you cannot and should not leave. And I don't even know how many gay men are aware they consciously think that way. But if I had a nickel for every "ewwww vagina" comment or look of disgust and horror I've gotten when I've admitted attraction to a woman, I'd have several nickels.

Yuki
11-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Human sexuality is a tricky thing. It's so bound up in all our social anxieties and subject constructions, it only makes sense that our social programming underlies our sexual expressions.

I'm not a gay man, so I can't really speak about that. But I imagine it has something to do with having a chip on one's shoulder- being gay isn't just a personal, sexual identity but a political statement as well. In a heteronormative, homophobic society, identifying as gay is a radical act- an act of defiance against the authority. I can see how it might feel like a betrayal or capitulation to "the movement" to express interest in opposite sex attraction, especially given how pervasive and normative these attractions are in our cultural economy, the amount of premium given to expressions of such attraction, and the pressure leveled at gay people, particularly men, to conform to these norms. It's easier for women, I think, because woman/woman homosexuality is not seen as such an indelible stigma. To abandon the stigma, and consequently, the radical nature of homosexuality (especially male homosexuality), for a much safer, much more accepted sexual identity, does seem likely to cause anxiety in those whose notions of gay pride are founded on solidarity and communal unity. Suddenly there are differences cropping up everywhere in what was once a unified whole, differences which bear disturbing resemblances to such homophobic maxims as "it's just a phase", "pray the gay away", "maybe, if you just meet the right girl", et al, plus all the reductive masculinity gender anxiety forced down the throats of men by Patriarchy. I'm not saying that an interest in exploring one's sexuality is capitulating to the heternormative imperative, but I can see how it might bear a resemblance to those selfsame images and ideas that are forced upon us all, to enforce compulsory heterosexuality. And I can see how this resemblance might threaten others who have had traumatic experiences with such images and ideas (I think most of us have) and who need a sense of belonging in order to cope with the trauma.

This is why I think queer is a much more liberating paradigm than gay/bi/etc. Queer is just about difference, non-normativeness, rather than any particular, set attraction- it isn't meant to be static or coherent. In fact, it's the very opposite. Queer identity is all about change and flux, rather than rigid binary categories.

Now, as a trans woman, my attractions will always be taboo. ;)

toriMODE
11-03-2011, 11:06 PM
How common in the trans world is it for a male transitioning to a female but wants to be in romantic relationships with females after their change?

Yuki
11-03-2011, 11:12 PM
I think it's pretty common, actually! I don't really know many trans people in my actual life, though, so this is all based on stuff I've read on the internet. I myself am hetero (for the time being) but I have experienced feelings of bi curiosity.

ebby
11-03-2011, 11:24 PM
How common in the trans world is it for a male transitioning to a female but wants to be in romantic relationships with females after their change?

Gender identity and sexual preference are different things ;)

Gender expression might change, and sexual preferences might change, but not necessarily both or one or the other.

I know some trans people whose sexual preferences diversified or flipped during/post-transition, and others whose didn't change at all and remained attracted to the same gender they were always attracted to.

But it is something that really intrigues me - as the point I always make to people is that you don't fall in love with someone's genitals or gender, you fall in love with that person. Sexual preference or orientation is just what we desire physically - but really, it's about people not gender, in my opinion.

other pete
11-04-2011, 12:00 AM
Gender identity and sexual preference are different things ;)


"That's what s/he said!"

toriMODE
11-04-2011, 12:50 AM
Gender identity and sexual preference are different things ;)

Gender expression might change, and sexual preferences might change, but not necessarily both or one or the other.

I know some trans people whose sexual preferences diversified or flipped during/post-transition, and others whose didn't change at all and remained attracted to the same gender they were always attracted to.

But it is something that really intrigues me - as the point I always make to people is that you don't fall in love with someone's genitals or gender, you fall in love with that person. Sexual preference or orientation is just what we desire physically - but really, it's about people not gender, in my opinion.

I know that they are different things, I am just curious how common it is to want to stay with the same sex after a sex change.

ebby
11-04-2011, 01:14 AM
I know that they are different things, I am just curious how common it is to want to stay with the same sex after a sex change.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules at all.

If someone's been repressing a gender identity, then coming out about that may lead them to explore their sexual orientation too.
Or vice versa - some people explore their sexual identity before starting to come to terms with their gender identity.
Or other more tangled versions thereof too.

And then, I remember reading an interview with one couple who were a lesbian couple when they got together, then one transitioned to male, and then after that the other one also started to transition, so they were a lesbian couple, a straight couple, and a gay couple - or, they were always the same couple. ;)

Zach
11-04-2011, 04:56 AM
Yuki, I think you're right on the money.

Yuki
11-04-2011, 04:33 PM
I wasn't sure where to put this, so I'll post it here. Queer infighting! Reading the comments thread of the article linked below makes me want to fucking kill myself:

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/11/dan_savage_gets_glitter_bombed_for_being_transphob.php

Yesterday evening Dan Savage visited the University of Oregon campus in Eugene as a part of his tour filming his show Savage U for MTV. While the details are not entirely clear, apparently a representative from the "Dan Savage Welcoming Committee" rushed the stage to glitter bomb the celebrity sex columnist along with the statement "Dan Savage is a transphobe!"

As they turned tail, they added, "Glitterbomb courtesy of the Dan Savage Welcoming Committee," and just before they got out the door, "He's a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist, too!" The operative then fled the scene.
--Statement by Dan Savage Welcoming Committee

Dan Savage has made it clear that he intends to be an ally to trans people, but he's certainly been a very inconsistent ally. Sometimes he apologizes for his transphobic actions, such as when he was criticized for saying that a Republican politician was trans as a way to insult him. Other times, he ridicules those who point out his transphobic actions, depicts them as over-sensitive, irrational, and so forth. He occasionally uses the power of his popularity to bring attention to important trans issues, but he refuses to listen to trans people when they tell him what he is doing is causing harm.t's interesting to see the response to all this in a public glitter bombing. Savage has yet to release any statement on the matter, but it's likely to be pretty similar to his statement in an interview with David Badash last month.

"How do you disprove a charge like you're transphobic? I'm not afraid of trans people." Savage then goes into a mimicking voice, knowing not to say, "One of my friends is trans," but does say that he has a friend who is trans who comes to his house for Christmas. "We hang out all the time," Savage says. "I certainly have had a journey in the last 20 years--as have we all--on trans issues. When I started writing Savage Love 20 years ago, and you can yank quotes 15, 18 years ago and flat them up today and say, 'You know, that's transphobic,' I'd probably agree with you. 15 years ago I didn't know as much as I know now--nor did anybody."

The problem I see here is that an ally in any anti-oppression movement should not be focused on disproving the fact that they are influenced by prejudice. In doing so, he paints himself into an adversarial relationship with the trans activists who he tries to discredit in order to prove his worth. I would argue that it's probably impossible to avoid internalizing prejudicial messages. The best thing any ally can do is take responsibility for those influences and seek to be accountable for them. Yet Dan Savage is too busy dodging responsibility to actually internalize an understanding of what he is doing that is wrong.

Because while it was 8 years ago that he titled a column "Bad Tranny" where he admonished a trans woman for coming out, it was only two years ago that he used the term "shemale" to refer to trans women. Just one year ago, several weeks in succession, first when a caller discusses watching trans porn, he admits that he knows he shouldn't use either derogatory term, but declares that it's okay to do so when referencing porn and proceeds to joyfully sling around the word "tranny" ten times in about two minutes and tosses in "shemale" a few times for good measure. Then repeats his previous assertion that men who are attracted to trans women cannot be considered completely straight. A week later he verbally thrashes a trans person who got upset at being mispronouned. Then finally, he reassures a man who likes women with strap-ons that he is 100% straight as long as the cock that he's attracted to is attached to a woman - which apparently means he doesn't consider trans women to be women, or else he would have said the same thing to the guy who watches trans porn.

I have to wonder, with all that Dan Savage claims to have learned in the past 15 years, has he learned how to be less transphobic or has he only learned how to sound less transphobic while still putting out equally damaging statements?

I could go on, but his behavior has already been well documented by other bloggers, such as Masculine Toast, Bi Furious, Greta Christina, and FuckNoDanSavage. The bottom line is that when challenged on his various prejudicial influences, Dan Savage tells his critics to patiently wait for him while it gets better. This glitterbomb is one of many responses that demand, "Make it better."

Why can't we all just hold hands and get along?

Faust
11-04-2011, 06:21 PM
Because the etymology of the word "douche" is more important. Duh.

Also, I've always liked what Savage has said about bisexuality, but none of the transgender slurs surprise me, unfortunately.

Andreas
11-12-2011, 03:57 PM
I just think there are so many people much more deserving of being "glitter bombed" than Dan Savage. Why focus on somebody who's far more in your corner (even if he doesn't get his terminology right all the time) than pretty much every politician and religious figure in the country? It just strikes me as really counter-productive.

I don't read Dan's column but I've listened to every episode of his podcast and I have a really hard time getting offended by him, even when he's less than eloquent and puts his foot in his mouth. I think it's pretty obvious that his heart is in the right place.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
11-12-2011, 06:46 PM
^ I have to agree with you on this one. I don't think Dan Savage is nearly as "queer" or even open-minded as people seem to think he is, but this sounds like yet another example of a few obnoxious fucks who invest their time and energy in policing "the" community for political correctness rather than in working towards positive change. It's a type mightily familiar to me from my time in college. Know how to pick your battles.

uskidsknow
11-22-2011, 05:24 PM
Forgive my ignorance about the word "tranny," but does the trans population use it casually the way gay men sometimes call each other "fag" or "faggot?"

Yuki
11-22-2011, 05:33 PM
I don't know, but I don't like it and would be offended if anyone used it on me. It's so pornographic and exploitative, imo.

Lathan
11-22-2011, 08:23 PM
Pornographic? How so?

other pete
11-22-2011, 10:07 PM
I think tranny has very different contexts in different countries. In the UK 1960s-70s it was originally short for Transistor Radio - the first battery powered portable radios teenagers could afford. Every fab groovy chick loved her tranny!

I was told that people who were being called transvestites by psychiatrists (oh hai progress) then took the term tranny themselves, as a playful trendy alternative, and it caught on and stayed in the language once transistor radios were forgotten.

Of course bigots would then use it as an insult, as they would anything, but here the all purpose "[gender] bender" would be the phrase spat with vitriol at anyone out of step with the rules, as "faggot" was in other countries.

But society moves faster than language, and I've heard of people using "tranny" trying to insult people who've had gender reassignments, the implication being that they are "really just a bloke in a frock". :mad:

Linguistics is so queer!

[actual title of an essay I once wrote... My tutor changed it in red pen to "Linguistics ARE so queer", which amused us both]

GerriSferrazza
11-24-2011, 02:35 AM
This is what bugs me about being queer -> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0288937/board/thread/190881062?p=1

I bring up the topic of no gay male characters on a series and I am viciously attacked by people who basically tell me that the plight of Muslims and Asians is "more" important than "you people". I try and explain to the attackers that they're not seeing the forest for the trees since there are gays in every group (Muslims, Asians, etc., literally every group) and I am still attacked over and over again by people trying to minimize the plight of gays while promoting the suffering of Muslims and Asians. I say again that Muslims make up a sixth of the world's population so there are more gay Muslims in the World than in any other religious or ethnic group, so why such resistance? Do these attackers really see gays and Muslims, Asians, etc. as totally separate groups? LOL!

Myshuno
08-24-2012, 01:05 AM
The fag hags.

Bryan Alan
08-24-2012, 02:32 AM
Was is with lesbians and gay men not getting along? More importantly, what is with gay men being the most judgmental people on the planet while asking everyone else to accept them?

Faust
08-24-2012, 03:52 AM
The fag hags.

Just the concept itself is really offensive and obnoxious to me.

For me, I really hate this incessant need to categorize everything and everyone into some dichotomy; my homophobia study course I took a year or so ago had a lot of students that really didn't like the concept of "queer" as opposed to just gay or straight. When I tried explaining that a lot of people don't like being pinned down to a single or very straightforward label of sexual attraction and find their sexualities a lot more complicated than that, I got asked why they were being whiney bisexuals (never mind trying to explain to them why that was an incorrect judgment on its own) or closet cases, etc. Almost like they were threatened that someone who engages in same-sex romance or activity could wind up with someone of the opposite sex too. I'd never met so many people that identify as gay that were so opposed to anything that didn't in with their perception of what "gay" or "queer" meant- for them, early 20s, male, white, thin. This was very disheartening and eye-opening to someone like myself, who was used to sexuality not really mattering or being a thing. I never felt judged growing up or in other scenarios by heterosexual people (generally), so it was a big change for me.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-24-2012, 05:30 AM
More importantly, what is with gay men being the most judgmental people on the planet while asking everyone else to accept them?

Maybe I'm being oversensitive here, but I think this claim itself is a bit tacitly fucked. I want to say homophobic, but that's probably overstepping it. I mean, (a) you're painting with a very wide brush to suggest that gay men are all the same and all judgmental - and I'd say even the way this sort of cultural reading operates in gay culture is more complicated than simple Mean Girls style bitchery (though not always). And then (b) I don't think I, as a gay man, should have to ASK to be recognized as a human being. Which is basically what civil rights for queer people feels like it's been boiled down to for me, particularly in light of recent hot button political controversies - the US presidential election, the Chick Fil A shit, DADT, DOMA, so on and so forth.

I'm a human being for chrissakes, not someone's stepping stone for a legal or ideological agenda. Nor am I a caricature-able cunt who appears with witty lines in sitcoms. Those things are part of my identity and impact me greatly, and I'm by no means going to say, "Oh, I just...happen to be gay" (another discourse I find really unsettling as it appears in contemporary and mainstream gay culture), but I think you're being a bit broad with your complaints here, to the detriment of your logic.

Spikey
08-24-2012, 10:29 AM
(a) you're painting with a very wide brush to suggest that gay men are all the same and all judgmental - and I'd say even the way this sort of cultural reading operates in gay culture is more complicated than simple Mean Girls style bitchery (though not always).

The comment being painted by a wide brush, doesn't have to include you as an individual. It just sometimes feels as if gays are really overly judgmental towards other minorities to me, too.


(b) I don't think I, as a gay man, should have to ASK to be recognized as a human being. Which is basically what civil rights for queer people feels like it's been boiled down to for me, particularly in light of recent hot button political controversies - the US presidential election, the Chick Fil A shit, DADT, DOMA, so on and so forth.


I don't think it was meant for anyone in particular on these boards. Actually I think heterosexism is more complicated than that. It really is logical for culture to focus on heteros, since only about 4% of us are different. Even if we achieve the same rights, the mindset and expectations will still be 96% heterosexual in culture, so if you're not fighting for laws anymore, you'll be fighting for something else. Always. That's partly what defines the subculture, I think.


Gays and lesbians sometimes clash. In my own environment I noticed that;
A) Lesbian scenes are more sparse than gay scenes B) Conjoint scenes do exist, but are sort of rare.
The separation is sort of large, and I don't think that really helps with the judgmental issues between the groups. I know that contact theory doesn't really solve the judgemental issues between the two groups, but I do wish that we would feel more as 'one' group. I think the gap exists partly because lesbians integrate more in suburbia, and gays often remain in urban life.

Also, I think gays and lesbians are shaped differently by culture and social environment early on in their lives. For example walking hand in hand with a person of your own gender sort of really breaks the traditional images for men more than for women; the rejection gay men endure from their own gender is a different kind of rejection that lesbians endure from their own gender. Well it's hard to explain what I mean now that I'm typing, but maybe you get what I mean.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-24-2012, 04:14 PM
^ I didn't read the original comment as directed to anyone in particular; I was emphasizing "I" and "for me," because I recognize that other people have different vantage points on their sexual identities and the context of those identities in a larger political or cultural context. But the point of my post was sort of precisely that - you can't make all GLBTQBJTYZ people reducible to a kind of old wives' tale about gay men being snarky bitches across the board. I think that, if in fact there is a more potent level of that attitude in the gay community, there's a method to the madness in some sense. Again, using myself as an example, I learned from a pretty young age that I can tear someone down with nasty wit and so turn the tables on haters. I'm not going to survive a fist fight, but I've shamed a fair share of homophobes - that kind of humor can both operate as a defense mechanism and can sometimes dissipate a potentially dangerous conflict. Of course, that also means that I probably come off as just another "bitchy, camp queen" sometimes. So like I said before, I think the "judgmental" quality Bryan's calling gay men out on is more complicated and only tangentially related to sexuality - and even more tenuously connected to a demand for civil rights.

It's not as if I haven't dealt with true cunts in the gay community before. But every time I slide into thinking of it as a characteristic somehow more unique to gay men, I remember how many horrible cunts I deal with who come from all walks of life. Maybe it just seems to us more hurtful or more noticeable because we ride on an unwarranted expectation that we share commonalities with other gay people beyond the directions of our desires and our experiences with homophobia.

Waylon
08-24-2012, 05:28 PM
Good discussions, guys. Keep it up!

Bryan Alan
08-24-2012, 06:55 PM
Well, I certainly didn't intend to generalize, although it appears I came across that way. In my own experience, gay men are very judgmental towards other gay men. Who knows, maybe it's from living in Boystown for 2 years. I don't think all gay men are judgmental. I've come across, met, and been friends with gay men over the years that I would never label as judgmental. However, those types are few and far between. I will admit, I'm a person who believes that when it comes to stereotypes, many of them are actually quite true. I understand that's probably a pretty controversial statement to make, but I'm just being honest.

Again, I stress in my own experience.

Banjee
08-24-2012, 09:34 PM
Being gay doesn't excuse anyone from horrible behavior. Some people are just horrible period. And sometimes, some of the oppressed contribute to their own oppression by oppressing others like them. It gives them (limited) power, and since they've been screwed out of the power dynamic their whole life, the quickly latch on to whatever power they can gain at whatever price. Unfortunately, it's a common social dynamic. Take the Bear SCene for example-- a traditionally marginalized group of gay guys that felt that they didn't fit in with the circuit gays (muscly and fit, twinky, smooth skin), so they create their own "Body positive" circuit, unless that body is fey, limp-wristed, or femme. So, on the one hand they are ok with "all body types", as long as those body types ape masculinity in one way or another.

MyNameisWarts
08-24-2012, 10:06 PM
There's a stereotype about gay men being gym obsessed and judgmental of other body types, and I have always found this really strange and nothing at all like my own experience. Maybe it's the places I have lived - I mean, living in San Francisco it just feels like no matter who/what you are, you can EASILY find someone for whom you are exactly their type. Walk through the castro and you see the most unusual pairings - a big body building guy with a short chubby dude, a twink with a giant bear - this kind of thing is everywhere.

Mario speaks the truth. Gay people are just as dumb and horrible on average as any human being. There's a bunch of famous experiments from a while back about "illusory correlations" - when we come across a person who is behaving badly in some way AND they are a member of some minority, we tend to remember these examples better and end up overestimating the association between the behavior and the group.

Andyland
08-24-2012, 10:47 PM
I'm on the east coast, and I'd say I don't notice those types of pairings very often. I tend to see fit people dating fit people, and overweight guys/bears dating others of the same build. Not saying they aren't out there, just saying I feel I see far more "same-same" couples.

ebby
08-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Was is with lesbians and gay men not getting along?

I don't get it at all. Lesbian women and gay men definitely get along in this part of the world. But, it does appear to be less of the case in bigger scenes where everything appears to become more compartamentalised and fragmented. Here the scene is so small, that to segregate would leave no scene, so honestly, all different variations of orientation and gender expression have to get along together, and even *gasp* with heterosexual people too! The upside to such a small scene is that there is so much more integration and you make friends with someone because you like not, not because you might get to fuck them.

Personally, it seems that I get along with lesbian women better and easier than any other people for some reason. My best friends since I was a teen have usually been lesbian women. I get quite angry with gay men who turn out to be sexist fucks who hate lesbians. There's also this notion that lesbians and gay men have nothing in common. Which baffles me. Surely we don't reduce the entirety of life to gender experience and sexual orientation? Sure, I'm not a woman, nor do I sleep with women, but are they the reasons we make friends with someone? It's a ridiculous concept. As if that's the only reason for any interaction. It really does infuriate me.

NUHN
08-25-2012, 06:10 PM
Was is with lesbians and gay men not getting along? More importantly, what is with gay men being the most judgmental people on the planet while asking everyone else to accept them?

*In my opinion*, many (certainly not all, but many) gay men are extremely apolitical, (or to put in a kinder way: less rigidly ideological), as opposed to (many) gay women, who are more civic? politically? - minded. And this is the source of some conflict at times.

EnjoyJoy
08-25-2012, 06:54 PM
I don't know what the deal is either, and yes, it also baffles me. There's just so much to bring people together, surely gender and people you sleep with can't be the only ones? However, in Madrid the scene is usually pretty divided, although the more artsy and/or political gay youth does mix a lot, there's no segregation there.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-27-2012, 01:18 AM
I'm on the east coast, and I'd say I don't notice those types of pairings very often. I tend to see fit people dating fit people, and overweight guys/bears dating others of the same build. Not saying they aren't out there, just saying I feel I see far more "same-same" couples.

This has always been my experience on the east coast, too, which I can't seem to figure any rhyme or reason for. I notice in Boston, for example (where I've been living for three years), that the available aesthetic for gay men is incredibly restricted and overwhelmingly invested in orthodox masculinity. The clean-cut all american look and the bear population (which seem to me the dominant ideals here) really begin to seem like two extensions of the same idea. But of course, I'm pretty camp and stylistically androgynous, so maybe I just notice this because I feel personally excluded from the scene. Maybe it appears more diverse from within, or is. Oddly enough, I felt there was a greater sense of variety and a laissez-faire attitude in the south, where I grew up. People always find it shocking when I tell them I've dealt with a much greater weight of homophobia (both in and out of "the" community") in Boston than I did in Virginia.

I notice too that though there's a very large and very visible lesbian population, particularly in a few notable subsets of the Boston area (Somerville, Jamaica Plain), I really never see them out and about in the bar scene and definitely see gay men and women as generally separate social groups here.

Adam
08-27-2012, 09:22 AM
Out of all the places I've lived, NY being one of them, Columbus, Ohio is THE only place where I've seen lesbians and gay men mix. And there is a HUGE gay population there, but I think as the majority of Columbus citizens come from very small and judgmental towns, there is more unity because everyone feels that they've finally found a safe place. Maybe I just spent more time hanging out in clubs there, but in NY I noticed hardly any women out at the bars. It seemed that the point of going out was to get laid, so why would lesbians and gay men mix? Lesbians had their bars, the gay men had theirs. It's a bit sad, but then I really don't think that just because you're attracted to the same sex means that you have much in common. It's like asking every african -american to be friends with one another. We're all just people. But it IS ridiculous that sometimes there is some notion that gay men and women are like cats and dogs and just don't like one another. I've heard it from both genders and it is just so frustrating that people can't be friends with one another for things like common interests and a liking of the other person's personality.

My beef right now with being queer is that there is SO much focus on sex within the gay community. It seems that with the popularity of hook up apps such as Scruff and Grindr, that no one wants to even try to be friends with someone unless there is the chance of having sex. I see so many guys on these apps that say they're just looking for friends, and then when you say "hello", they say " Sorry. You're not my type" Oh. Well, I thought you were looking for a friend, not a fuck. My bad.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-27-2012, 03:44 PM
Oh lawd! That is like...the worst about Grindr. 99% of dudes on there claim to NOT be looking for hookups, but I've gotten the same thing almost every time I've tried to talk to guys about potential friendship (the "You're not my type") or dating. Like, the kiss of death, even after having had great text conversations there, is when I ask "So, do you want to grab a drink sometime and continue the conversation in person?" They basically motherfuckin disapparate at that point.

I think what's frustrating, for me, is that the pure mobility of sex now has really created an atmosphere of this kind of infinite erotic postponement. Like, there's ALWAYS going to be a hotter guy out there, so why go to the club or talk to someone at a bar when you can just get trashed and then find an Adonis that lives a block away when you stumble home? I think a lot of factors have damaged contemporary dating culture, but I really wonder to what extent gay nightlife is suffering from things like grindr, Manhunt, etc.

ebby
08-27-2012, 03:58 PM
^ I dunno. To me grindr is no different from any gay bar. Everyone's there for different reasons, but usually in the back of their minds they're hoping they'll meet someone too. I've ended up dispensing tourism advice, giving people directions, recommending restaurants, meeting new friends, arranging movie nights, and going on actual dates with people through using Grindr.

In the same way some people will go to a gay bar just to score, others will go just to socialise and meet new people, or a mix of both, or whatever. To say that grindr or manhunt or whatever is damaging contemporary dating culture is to utterly romanticise the notion of dating culture in the first place. There'll always be people looking for the next fuck - be it on a common, in a cottage, or on grindr, and there will always be people looking for romance, whether it's in a gay bar, on grindr, or in a café, and there will always be people just looking for a network of friends to hang out with.

The last guy I ended up going on a number of dates with I met through grindr. He came over to watch a movie and have some wine, and we ended up talking for hours well into the early morning. The last random one-night stand I had was with a guy I'm friends with who works nearby and we flirt a lot. Meeting in a café ended up as a one night thing, meeting on grindr ended up in a much more romance based few weeks (only kept quite light because the guy is moving countries next month).

You can't start to blame the tools, or the locations, or how it affects someone's supposed intent, because that intent is always coming from the person, and if there's one thing the LGBT community have been excellent at, it's finding ways to find each other for whatever it is they want to do together. Hence the sprawling networks of cruising grounds, hence the development of specific slang and subcultures that are meaningless to people outside of that culture, hence the little dive bars the big clubs and gay cafés, hence the endless dating and cruising websites.

If you're dissatisfied by someone's intent, or false advertising, then move on and look for someone who shares the same outlook as you instead.

Adam
08-28-2012, 06:59 AM
Ebby, it seems that you have had a much different experience than most people I know. I, too, have met two wonderful exes through Manhunt and Grindr, but that was awhile ago. I believe that any social forum is what you make of it, so I DO take offense when people say " You can't find a relationship online. Those are just cruising sites" because you can. However, it seems that as more and more people log on, the harder it is for any real connection to take place. I have no idea why, and maybe it's just coincidence, but all of my gay friends have been discussing the same thing: that grinder and scruff have turned into time-wasters as of late. As it's easy for anyone in any environment to not be upfront about their intention(s), the anonymity of the internet/mobile apps makes it that much easier. I guess it's a simple as not wanting to be caught by your peers publicly looking for sex, so you say you're looking for "friends, chat and networking", only to shut down when someone tries to befriend you without the body type or facial features ( or sexual role) that makes you want to jump into the sack. It's like " Oh no. I'm not that kind of guy. I'm just on here to meet friends" Sure you are. ;)

Ms. Shart O'Nay, your idea of "infinite erotic postponement" is another thing I detest about my dating pool right now. I've been guilty of it, too...But I swear, especially in New York, I found it IMPOSSIBLE to date. There are so many people, so many chances for "the next thing". Add to that the fact that you can disappear in that city and never see the guy again, lead double lives easily ( I knew so many guys dating several guys...none of them knew about the other), and now, instead of your dating pool consisting of not just who's at the bar but who is at the bar across the street or in their apt on Grindr, there is almost just TOO much to choose from. It makes people addicted to the next page, the next twenty guys. I think that social media is definitely playing a role in modern dating.

ebby
08-28-2012, 10:58 AM
... instead of your dating pool consisting of not just who's at the bar but who is at the bar across the street or in their apt on Grindr, there is almost just TOO much to choose from. It makes people addicted to the next page, the next twenty guys. I think that social media is definitely playing a role in modern dating.

See, that just reminds me of the opening scenes in the UK version of Queer As Folk (1999), season 1 episode 1, about 2 minutes into the show:

"Now sometimes you're half way through a shag, and you just get bored of him, so you wank him off in a doorway and move straight on, cause you keep on looking, that's why you keep going out - There's always some new bloke, some better bloke waiting around the corner"

Sure, that's some people's thoughts, and always have been, regardless of mobile dating apps. People just had a drink in one bar, before going to check the next bar in case someone hotter was there, and then the next bar... and so on. I don't think it has anything to do with mobile apps affecting how people date, and everything to do with how some gay men have always behaved.

I really fervently believe that all the mobile apps are doing is making it more obvious, but that nothing in their behaviour has really changed at all. Where's there's choice, some people will keep looking until they spot something they think is their ideal. But notions of ideals through the gay male scene is something that is never achieved. Our notions of perfection are what are at fault here, nothing to do with mobile dating apps, or bar scenes, or cruising grounds. There's always an ideal muscle guy, or an ideal hairy bear, or an ideal twink, or whatever little niche you're into.

Adam
08-28-2012, 12:09 PM
And I'd say you're right on. What's odd is that we all know (if not just looking for sex), that it's not until we really get to know someone that a real connection can occur, and I assume that's what we're all looking for...So, these apps should help us achieve that, as you're able to actually have a conversation with a stranger for a lengthy amount of time and do it in a quiet, sober environment. It really is a great way to meet guys. I mean, you're not out with your friends, they aren't out with theirs, there is no alcohol involved, so you get to have a private chat and really figure out if it's someone you'd like to meet in real life. But as Ms. Shart O' Nay said, it's sadly not used to its fullest and best potential. And it IS irritating when you've began a conversation with someone and have had that conversation turn into a lengthy and interesting exchange, that most guys run when you suggest taking it into "real life". It make you wonder how "real" people are being online and on these mobile apps. But I guess dating will always be hard, and people and their actions will always remain quite mysterious, with or without technology. Now we just need all of those dating "self-help" books updated for the internet age. ;)

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-28-2012, 03:42 PM
Well, ebby, I'd disagree with your idea that the sorts of technologies involved in our dating and erotic approaches have no generative impact on our actual desires. I think perhaps you and I are in an age range where we've toed the line of both the pre-internet dating era and its continuing peak, and so think about it differently than people who are coming into their sexual independence now (I actually don't remember your age, but at 25, I've at least had some experience on both sides). Basically, I'd suggest that things like grindr have actually created different sorts of desires and approaches - I don't think these technologies are vacuous tools but are changing the way we perceive the world. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I'm not some sort of ridiculous Luddite who thinks that there was some kind of idyllic Romance before the internet age that deserves profound nostalgia. But I do think that the sorts of technologies and applications that seem to overwhelm the gay market at present enable people to be less invested in situations where there isn't immediate gratification, be it sexual or knowledge based (you can now determine exactly how a guy measures up against some other dude two blocks away on the basis of height, cock size, musical tastes, etc.) - is this guy fuckable or dateable or both or neither within a 2 minute scan of a series of data points? I agree that I probably romanticize old school dating to some point, but I also think it's a bit naive to suggest that things like grindr and manhunt and online dating websites simply mold as tools onto already stable, personal dispositions and sexual methodologies.

And of course there's no hard and fast rule. I've had great conversations on grindr and a few dates (though not good), and I've hooked up there. And I've been on dating sites and had serious things there but also one night stands, etc etc. I suppose the short of it is that the apps are not omnipotent mechanisms, but neither are we; there's an overlap there, and there are ways in which I find certain consequences of that overlap - as I perceive it - difficult to deal with or irritating. I also don't think dating is quite as simple as you make it sound:


If you're dissatisfied by someone's intent, or false advertising, then move on and look for someone who shares the same outlook as you instead.

But of course, you're a super handsome dude with an accent, so there's that!

other pete
08-28-2012, 06:35 PM
I remember when the equivalent to all this was having to post people photographs, after reading adverts that they had paid to have printed in the Pink Paper or Boyz. A hundred years ago in the 1990s.

ebby
08-28-2012, 06:43 PM
^ in the Hollinghurst I'm reading at the moment, there's a section set in the late 60's just before legalisation, and one of the characters is reading the small ads for "bachelor's looking for flatmates" and "massage" and "bachelors to exercise together" and the like. A whole world of hidden codes.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
08-29-2012, 03:49 AM
^ Which Hollinghurst?

spyk_
09-01-2012, 12:13 PM
I hate it when people talk about how accessible the gay dating scene is, because I'm really sociable, know lots of gays and am desperately lonely but the only guy that I can get to even take a second look at me has had to have a restraining order threatened against him by another guy I know, because he's that much of a creep. Yeah, makes me feel really sexy. I'm on Grindr but like others have said nothing ever goes anywhere - no matter if I'm looking for sex or dates. I don't look for a 'connection' online or on apps because I don't believe that you can tell at all if you're going to click with someone, so I usually just go on looks and/or interests. Even other guys I know can find dates so easily, and usually it's seen as an advantage of being gay that things are so organised and assessable. I feel like other guys my age (22) are out bed-hopping whilst I'm at home reordering my theatre programme box, crying into my Kate Bush collectables and refreshing my Grindr every 5 minutes. Doesn't help that I just moved back in with my parents, who live in the bowels of suburbia. When I move to London in the next few months I'm hoping to experience a cock-fest of biblical proportions, but I doubt anything will actually change.

So yeah, that's what's going on with me...

ebby
09-01-2012, 12:38 PM
The dating world is a strange beast for anyone I think. I mean, the last guy I met that I really clicked with was through grindr, and we ended up chatting about french cinema on it, before meeting up for a movie. We didn't watch the movie as we ended up chatting for hours about everything from Kate Bush and Lana Del Ray, to Gustav Mahler and Pedro Almodovar - intelligent, articulate, opinionated, educated and creative! Perfect combination. And he's a bit of a ride too. But then, he's about to move to Scotland for the next four years, so, yeah. Even when you do find someone you're really interested in there's not much to keep someone that interesting in the part of the world I live in. (further out than suburbia, small town, west of ireland... )

But it is obviously true that a bigger metropolitan area has more variety and a bigger bunch of people you're probably interested in getting to know. Then again, there's also more of the people you're not that interested in too.

But I'm intrigued that you're not looking for a connection online, but just basing everything on looks/interests. That bemuses me, as I've definitely clicked with people a lot online and that translated offline too - for friends or dating. In fact, I'd say about 90% of the gays I know at this stage, I've met and interacted with online, or met through one of those people I met online. There's very few people I've met first offline, as I'm not that interested in the gay scene where I live, and I can't afford to be making trips to Dublin or Cork every week.

Maybe it's just the way I interact with people? Or maybe it's the sites I interact with people most on - (most of the people I know I've met through twitter or thingbox at this stage, to be honest, or they are people I've known for a number of years.)

spyk_
09-01-2012, 01:11 PM
It's more that I don't trust my interactions with online people in a romantic sense, and I believe it's really easy to come across as anything you want so I get skittish as to whether the person is going to be at all like I think they will when I meet them. Also the possibility that they might cut me up into little pieces and hide me in the floorboards like John Wayne Gacy, but I understand that that's my own shit I need to deal with. I've never had a relationship come out of anything online (romantic or otherwise) so I suppose I'm inexperienced. Maybe I should be braver more often and I'd have positive experiences. There's only been a few times in life that I've needed to search for partners, because I was in a two-year relationship, then a period where the thought of sexual contact made me nauseous, then I was on a very busy full time course so had no space for that kind of thing. Now my life is pretty empty so maybe things will change.

ebby
09-01-2012, 01:21 PM
"what you risk reveals what you value" - Jeanette Winterson. You gotta take those risks in your life, but

Seriously, you'll learn pretty quickly when someone's on the level or not. I've met people from these forums, from social networking sites, and from gay specific ones too. Then again, I guess the first people I met that way was at a Tori Amos concert back in 2002, so I've had a decade to get rather comfortable with it and to build up a sense of whether or not someone is gonna be interesting to meet offline or not. Sometimes it's not what you expect, sometimes the person is better than you'd hoped. (also, here in Ireland, chances are you already have mutual friends in common. )

spyk_
09-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Good advice. However, it is still rare that I'll even get to that point with someone. As most conversations end with a "so what are you into then?" and then a deadly silence. Basically I think this whole conversation boils down to the fact that people are complex and scary, and I need therapy.

ebby
09-01-2012, 01:38 PM
"so what are you into then?"

"reordering my theatre programme box, crying into my Kate Bush collectables and refreshing my Grindr every 5 minutes. You?"


;)

spyk_
09-01-2012, 02:18 PM
Hahaha! That would be an interesting conversation starter, but I meant it was me asking them that question, then the deadly silence. ;)

EnjoyJoy
09-02-2012, 01:19 PM
I've never tried Grindr, mostly cause I've never had a phone that supports the app, so I've never really even given it much thought. However, I did try a dating website once, and all the matches in my area were kinda... well, not for me. I did find some good matches, in other cities, in other countries. Go figure! It wasn't all bad, I did get to go to Paris, even, wouldn't have been possible without the website. And well, I'm still young. I'm done with online dating for now, but I think that if I ever felt like it in a few years, I might give it another shot. I don't think it's all bad, of course there's gonna be some creeps, but I think (know, even) there's also gonna be some awesome people.

Adam
09-03-2012, 04:16 PM
EnjoyJoy, I just saw the other pics you posted in the Pic Thread, and believe me, it will never be hard for you to find a date. You are gorgeous.

EnjoyJoy
09-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Well, first of all, hahahaha, thanks, you made me blush! Second, some background information:

I grew up in Latin America, and my country didn't even decriminalize homosexuality till 2008 (year in which I turned 18) so it was very hard living there and there was not much of a dating scene. Now I live in Madrid, and though it is much, much better here, my life is very engulfed by college, so what happens is that on my free time I tend to hang out with my friends (from school as well) who are also tired of school, so we bitch about it together, or with other friends, cause I feel bad I haven't seen them in a long time. So there's that. Maybe one day I'll fully dive into the dating scene, but I'm also pretty content with my life; I do LOVE my degree and what I'm doing, so there's that as well.

Adam
09-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Don't worry. Life gives you opportunities all the time to meet people. I don't think anyone has to be "actively" searching, because, in a way, we always are; always meeting people and forming or not forming relationships with them. One day you'll meet a cute boy and without even knowing how or when, will wake up one day in a relationship. They just happen. So enjoy your friends, school and life in general. I'm sure you'll have tons of dating stories to tell in a few years time :)

other pete
03-28-2013, 10:25 AM
Top Ten Gay Movie Cliches (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/mar/25/top-10-gay-movie-cliches)


Moment of Rage

How dare my dad suggest he wants me to be straight like him and everyone else he's ever known!? It's time for a moment of rage! Throw your mobile on the floor so that the battery pack smashes! Cycle furiously while bent over your handlebars with a deep frown! And don't acknowledge Mrs Friendly Old Bitch who lives next door when she says hi. Pick up a brick and chuck it off a provincial bridge into a dried-out river and imagine what your body would sound like slamming against those … oh God, now we're quoting Björk lyrics. We're on to a winner here.

;l

Using "gay" to mean "gay male" is a bit of a bugger, but the paper quickly put out Top 10 Lesbian Movie Cliches (http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/mar/27/top-10-lesbian-movie-cliches) too (I want a tragic high concept death!! Lesbians always get the best stuff).

ebby
05-15-2013, 12:21 PM
boosting this because this article from Bret Easton-Ellis on Out.com about "the gay magical elves" as he monikers it (http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2013/05/13/bret-easton-ellis-gay-men-magical-elves), is sort of his version of this thread. "what bugs BEE about all things Queer" ;)

Some of it comes across as contentious for the sake of it, but I thought this part about the move "Weekend" was interesting, mostly as it's one of my favourite movies dealing with gay lead characters that has been released in the last few years, mostly because it feels more real than other gay themed cinema.


[...] flak from high-minded members of the gay community who took me to task for tweeting, before its official release, about how much I loved Andrew Haigh’s beautiful 2011 movie Weekend, probably the most extraordinarily honest and touching cinematic depiction of gay men I’ve seen. The two gay men, who hook up and spend a weekend together, are about as far from The Gay Men as Magical Elves as you can get. They’re lonely, they’re angry, they’re attractive but not within the stereotypical gay way the media espouses, they bond, they do a little drugs, they talk, they have fairly explicit sex, they have moments of happiness even though a muted dissatisfaction hovers over everything, they might never see each other again. Certainly no one “triumphs” in a gay cliché way and its ending is extremely moving because it’s so completely open-ended and real. To me: They represent.

But some people in the gay community demanded a more “positive” outlook on gay life and disagreed with me. They argued that, if I was going to recommend this movie to 300,000 followers, I should address the fact that the two men hook-up in a bar, are alienated in their respective ways, do drugs, and express disappointment about gay life—and this is negative. (Added note: They’re also poor.) I guess the guys in Weekend should have looked into adopting an Asian baby, planned their wedding over Mojitos at The Abbey, registered at Neiman-Marcus, and booked The Parker in Palm Springs for the nuptials. I found this response pretty tiresome, as I did when IFC, which distributed the movie, told me that they had problems when testing Weekend with certain members of the gay community who rejected the film and wanted something more gay positive than the wistfulness and confusion that permeates Weekend. The fact that PC gays often demand a candied fantasy that doesn’t really exist but, hey, represents our cause, rather than a sensitive and emotionally complicated movie written and directed by a gay man who is an artist, is a huge part of the disconnect within certain factions of the gay community.

While I don't expect BEE to be The Authoritative Voice On Gayness, I do appreciate someone who will throw the cat among the pigeons, so to speak.

Tellurium
05-15-2013, 01:01 PM
I really enjoyed that article, although I do disagree with some of it. In particular his paragraph on HIV jokes was one I just couldn't really make any sense of.

I'll have to see Weekend now. :)

His point that gay people should be allowed to be stupid and sometimes wrong about things without the GLAAD police exploding on them is a very important one, I think. And one, I guess, a lot of the commenters below the article seem to have missed completely.

ebby
05-15-2013, 01:12 PM
^ I really enjoyed Weekend. It reminds me of the Before Sunrise/Sunset series of movies where there's two strangers who meet and have a finite amount of time together before they know they're possibly not going to see each other again. It's a lot closer to that kind of movie than to any of the rom-com style of gay movie.

Tellurium
05-15-2013, 01:19 PM
^ I really enjoyed Weekend. It reminds me of the Before Sunrise/Sunset series of movies where there's two strangers who meet and have a finite amount of time together before they know they're possibly not going to see each other again. It's a lot closer to that kind of movie than to any of the rom-com style of gay movie.

I was actually going to put on this thread how the lack of viable (male) gay rom-coms really bugs me. I perused Netflix last night and watched BearCity and Is It Just Me last night and... eugh. I wanted to enjoy them so much, and there were parts that did that, but they were mostly saved by the fact that the modern world has allowed me to do other things while watching a film, so I didn't have to pay that much attention.

Someone make a feel-good-squishy-happy gay romance movie that actually delivers, please.

Weekend is definitely on my list now, though.

ebby
05-15-2013, 01:23 PM
There are few gay romance movies that I genuinely enjoy, but I do love "Shelter", "Beautiful Thing", "Were The World Mine" and "Les Chansons d'Amour" but the first two are the only two that are specifically gay romance - the latter two are both musicals and thus not everyone's cup of tea.

andy
05-15-2013, 03:57 PM
WHERE'S THE CHEESE? WHERE'S THE CHEESE ON THESE GODDAMN FUCKING FRIES?

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/trick.jpg

toriMODE
05-15-2013, 04:03 PM
Weekend is amazing. It's somewhat depressing, but I enjoyed it because it was just so realistic, and I was able to identify with it strongly.

ebby
05-15-2013, 04:21 PM
WHERE'S THE CHEESE? WHERE'S THE CHEESE ON THESE GODDAMN FUCKING FRIES?

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/trick.jpg

OMFG Yes! How did I forget that one!

Trick is absolutely a great, smushy, gay rom-com complete with this amazing moment:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv3GxVeZ5Xc

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62196Q3Q21qg77k1o1_500.png


I wanna go rewatch that now.

And play piano.

Andrew
05-15-2013, 07:02 PM
You ever get cum in your eye, Gabriel? etc.

sweet jesus that scene is amazing

Ryan
05-15-2013, 07:26 PM
That was my first introduction to Miss Coco Peru.

Banjee
05-15-2013, 07:45 PM
Tori Spelling's breakdown in Trick is GENIUS! Still one of my favorite moments on film.

Dan
05-15-2013, 11:06 PM
While I certainly have been put off by some of Easton-Ellis' twitter statements, there's a lot that I agree with in that article, and I've heard similar things from other gay men as well.

I mean, take Modern Family, for instance. Yes, I watch it and it does make me laugh, no doubt about that. But every now and then I keep thinking that there's absolutely nothing modern about that family at all. Rich, older man with younger, exotic trophy wife? Check. Hapless straight man with a much more logical and organized, yet neurotic wife? Check. Hot, dumb, somewhat slutty daughter? Check. Brainy, less attractive and socially functional daughter? Check. Single income families with the male (or at least more masculine) figure being the breadwinner? Check. Hell, it took a few seasons for Cam to get a job.

What makes that family modern? That there's a gay couple in it? Based on what we see on the show, they may as well be flatmates who raise a child together for whatever reason. There's absolutely nothing on the show that would make a viewer believe that Cam and Mitch fuck, or have ever fucked each other for that matter. The irony wasn't lost on me, either: Jesse Tyler Ferguson's character is relatable for many gay men - a professional, with some daddy issues, who still hasn't completely dealt with everything, who has his mannerisms without being completely over the top all the time. Stonestreet's, on the other hand, is the embodiment of how straight people had always imagined gay men, before actually getting to know some - completely and over the top effeminate, hysterical, a caricature of a housewife at times. Yet, the latter gets all the accolades.

Then there's The New Normal. Yes, I watch that too, and I quite like it. Those two, you actually believe they fuck like rabbits. Then again, they're so perfectly upper class and conventionally attractive and with everything sorted out that it makes them unrelatable to the vast majority of the gay population.

Glee is pure fantasy, to the point where hobbits and dragons and Jesus-y lions are more believable. It's definitely annoying at times, but I kind of give it a pass because I don't (and can't) really take it seriously.

Weekend, on the other hand, appeared out of nowhere as the perfect antidote to all that. There are two guys who are undeniably attractive, even though you could never mistake them for underwear models, porn stars or professional athletes. They are highly sexual, and somewhat kinky (as most gay men are). They're not obnoxiously wealthy. They're not eager to settle into the traditional suburban 2.4 kids pattern of living. They don't have it all figured out by any means. But they're trying. They're exploring. They're experiencing things. They realize there's shit that's holding them back, and while they don't find the magic cure, they work through it on a daily basis. That moment is quite likely everything they'll get from each other, yet that doesn't diminish or trivialize it.

There is something I've heard from other gay men and my view is somewhere along those lines as well. We all want things like gay marriage and adoption to be legalized all over the world. But for me, at least, it's not out of personal interest. (There isn't anyone I see myself marrying at this point, and I fucking hate children). It's because it would mean that from a legal point of view, at least, we would be completely on par with straight people. It's the ultimate way for mainstream (as in, straight) society to say yes, your rights, your relationships, your needs, your desires are just as valid, normal and correct as ours; there's nothing we have that you shouldn't have. Yet at the same time, from my perspective one of the best things about being gay is the ability (or urge, or need, or whatever you want to call it) to question pre-existing patterns and notions and ideals and making up your own mind. It's the idea of being able to be, if you are so inclined, the town slut, the (gay-)married suburbanite with the rugrats, the SUV and the picket fence, or anything in between.

This current phase of sanitized, family-oriented gay men being the face of the community is beneficial for the moment, just like the Stonewall drag queens were in their day. Just like the metal Cylons, they serve(d) their purpose. But I don't want to see anyone believing that that's the proper and correct way to be gay, just like I don't want people to think that being feminine or butch or whorish or de-sexed is the right and only way. And I think it's important to remember (regardless of how media depictions try make us and everyone forget) that most of us fall somewhere in the middle - be it between total whore and family man, between effeminate and butch, between perfectly PC or controversial, between Greek god and slob. It's up to every individual to find where he fits, and perhaps less judgment would somehow ease that process.

Banjee
06-02-2013, 12:53 PM
Interesting article about things that Gay Men need to stop doing immediately (we've covered lots of it here). (http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/15-things-gay-men-need-to-stop-doing/)

EnjoyJoy
06-02-2013, 11:36 PM
Huh, I actually agreed with a lot of it.

Adam
06-03-2013, 03:56 AM
I was actually going to put on this thread how the lack of viable (male) gay rom-coms really bugs me. I perused Netflix last night and watched BearCity and Is It Just Me last night and... eugh. I wanted to enjoy them so much, and there were parts that did that, but they were mostly saved by the fact that the modern world has allowed me to do other things while watching a film, so I didn't have to pay that much attention.

Someone make a feel-good-squishy-happy gay romance movie that actually delivers, please.

Weekend is definitely on my list now, though.

Watch The Trip. THE best gay rom com of all-time and one of my favorite movies in general. It's amazing.

Homogenik
06-10-2013, 12:53 AM
Interesting article about things that Gay Men need to stop doing immediately (we've covered lots of it here). (http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/15-things-gay-men-need-to-stop-doing/)

That was a funny read. I'm also very annoyed by how many guys on dating sites write "straight acting", no this, no that, as if they were at the local deli. It's so corporate and sad for the human race basically. How straight acting you can be with a cock in your mouth or elsewhere is all relative. I get messages from guys saying "oh, you're masculine, you must be really popular around here". What does that even mean? I find it as annoying as people saying to me "oh, but you don't look gay". What am I supposed to say? Thanks? No thanks.
By the way, I don't even know what an Abercrombie shirt is.
What I thought while reading that piece was that there is this underlying impression that gay people are marginal and thus are not sheep. That is totally inaccurate I think. Any category of people, whether they're considered marginal or not, can be sheepish. There are as many different gay people as there are straight people. And I don't think we should blame gay people specifically for following what others do when it's just the way the world goes for a lot of people. It may be something to be criticized, but not specifically for gay people. Just generally.

Edit: Oh, and since the title of the thread is what it is. What bugs me is the number of weird guys on dating sites. It's probably not a question of being gay or anything, but it's what I know so. I mean, it's happened to me that some men wrote to me but I wasn't interested and they were total assholes, like really vile, insulting me for no reason at all and obsessively writing me. Kind of scary really...

dAmION
06-10-2013, 02:35 AM
Nothing really I just wish there we're more gay men in my area.

Baltic
12-18-2013, 05:30 AM
To preface what I'm about to say, I never really had to deal with coming out to anyone except for family since most of my friends were gay or grew up with me and knew me pretty well (I never really had to hide anything).

Now, a couple months ago I moved to a new town where everything is new, including friends and all of them are (apparently) straight. I went out with one friend today for coffee. We've hung out maybe a couple times but I wouldn't consider her a close friend, and that can be said for everyone I know here, but we're on friendly terms and hang out once or twice a week, usually in groups. I can see myself getting closer to them and what happened today will probably make that easier for me, but it still annoyed me.

So, once we finished our coffee this conversation ensued:

She: Can I ask you a question?
Me: OK.
She: It's a personal question.
Me: OK. Go ahead.
She: Well, ummmm, there's a rumour that you are...ummm...Well not really a rumour...but are you a homosexual?
Me: Yes.
She: OK. There was a rumour. Someone said that we should be careful because you might be gay.
Me: Who?
She: Well, Tom.
Me: Oh ok. Yeah, I am. It doesn't matter if people know.

So, "Tom" said that this group we hang out with should be careful with what they say around me, as to not offend me. That's nice and all, but should you be saying homophobic things under any circumstances? This person who said this is a great person and I know he did it out of friendliness and I know he's not a homophobe, since we (a couple people) had a conversation about gay issues, but the fact that he felt it was his business to out me is annoying. Also, the fact that "it's a rumour" further perpetuates this idea that the sexuality of a gay person can be fodder for rumours, while one never hears "the rumour is he's straight." I understand why, but it annoys me. Also, who says "Are you a homosexual?" it's not the 50s ;)

The girl who asked me today is a very sweet person and I feel that the fact she asked me and told me allows for more freedom for me to talk about things I find relevant. Still, I wish it wasn't an issue. The fact that (I assume) most of these people are fine with homosexuality would make me think that such "rumours" wouldn't need to exist. Why is it a rumour in the first place? If they say it doesn't matter, why does it matter to be talking about it, even if it is to "benefit" me?

andy
12-18-2013, 09:40 AM
That sounds like a subplot in Pleasantville.

Owen
12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
Yeah, that's a whole lot of people who mean well which is sweet - but I agree. It's annoying that being gay is still such a *GASP*/rumour type of thing. Look at how the media gleefulyl speculates about the sexuality of celebrities rumoured to be in the closet, as if it's some sameful-yet-juicy tidbit that can be used to threaten people. Sad, really.

Though, I don't think your new circle of friends was gleefully gossiping about you, B. <3 It definitely feels like people who mean well.

Baltic
12-18-2013, 11:43 PM
I think so, too, Owen, but I just feel like I don't need to be defended for my sexuality, especially when I hadn't even come out to any one of these people. It's speculation (about my sexuality), on their part, which could lead to some unpleasant situations.

Homogenik
12-19-2013, 02:27 AM
I also immediately thought of Pleasantville :D
But the good thing is that from now on, just because they know you (as an openly-gay person), they won't have to consider homosexuality in that way, which is better for everyone as it makes living together more interesting.

Alamo
01-31-2014, 11:57 PM
My dad, my older friends, my brother. I Sreaaaaaam! I have hubby. Im happy.......

other pete
03-12-2014, 11:01 AM
Last week:


Richard Kennedy, 18, was targeted as he made his way home from a gay club night. He was stamped on so forcefully (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenager-speaks-out-after-suffering-3206604) that he could now face surgery to remove his front teeth. Richard has bravely posted shocking pictures of his injuries online, where they have been shared 175,000 times.
And he branded the attack - being treated by police as a possible homophobic incident - as 'utterly inhumane' and decided to speak out in a bid to warn others.He was set upon as he left a gay night at the Evoke nightclub in Preston town centre, when a gang of men shouted homophobic abuse (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/gay) and pushed him to the ground, stamping on his head.

Oh but wait.... he was actually so drunk he fell over his own feet and was homophobically attacked by the pavement, with no people anywhere near (http://www.lancashire.police.uk/about-us/news/alleged-homophobic-assault--update). Assault entirely invented.

The police are being very forgiving IMO, and don't seem to be pressing charges for wasting their time, because they don't want to put off genuine victims.

Maybe next time you decide to get so drunk that you pick a fight with the floor (not a crime in itself), don't then divert resources from hate crime investigations just because you want to become a meme?

Crying wolf doesn't only backfire on the crier, it harms everyone who might truly be in the situation you were pretending to be in. Grrrr.

Related: Drunken obnoxiousness, esp to receptionists/taxi drivers/cleaners/minimum wage nightshifters, and expecting other people to clear up your messes, bugs me about being queer.

Waylon
03-12-2014, 02:46 PM
Related: Drunken obnoxiousness, esp to receptionists/taxi drivers/cleaners/minimum wage nightshifters, and expecting other people to clear up your messes, bugs me about being queer.

It's interesting that you bring that up, Pete. I've been thinking lately how we gay fellows get away with some pretty inexcusable behavior. I'm one of six gay men at my workplace, and I often catch exchanging pretty raunchy comments about male customers (and even other male coworkers, in a couple of cases!). On reflection, I feel pretty guilty and gross that this seems to be accepted as something that's just in our nature as "outrageous gays," when it could potentially make others feel extremely uncomfortable.

Because, you know, I actually don't think of myself as outrageous at all. I just happen to have a dick and a sex drive and it doesn't seem to bother others when I mention how I'd like that one scruffy electrician to sit on my face for a few hours.

ETA: I have been making an effort not to verbalize this stuff at work because it's really not appropriate.

Octopussy
06-17-2014, 07:10 AM
I was expecting to eyeroll this, but it's completely spot-on. #12 should be higher on the list though.

12 Worst Types of Gay Men
http://www.out.com/entertainment/michael-musto/2014/06/16/12-worst-types-gay-men

The Markness
06-17-2014, 03:30 PM
I'm getting reallllllly tired of other gay men throwing shade about how being in an open relationship isn't really a serious marriage. Realllllllllly tired.

EDIT: Not meant to be a response to the article just posted. Just venting.

Faust
06-17-2014, 05:44 PM
I'm getting reallllllly tired of other gay men throwing shade about how being in an open relationship isn't really a serious marriage. Realllllllllly tired.


You and me both.

AshaBlack
06-21-2014, 06:18 PM
The thing that irritates me most at least from my perspective is that it's very hard to meet 'alternative' gay people. Gay men who are different to the mainstream. In general terms, they all like the same shit, all go to the gym to see who ends up with the biggest muscles, all spend weekends clubbing and gossiping, listen to Gaga and Kylie, etc. I'm speaking in general obviously there are exceptions in every stereotype but I find that with a lot of gay guys they fit the stereotypes really well and some even deliberately try to fit into the stereotypes.

I don't meet many Tori, PJ, Courtney, etc fans in Sydney. If you don't go clubbing and love dance music then you're automatically in the minority.

dAmION
06-22-2014, 12:29 AM
She: OK. There was a rumour. Someone said that we should be careful because you might be gay.



;l

Tellurium
06-22-2014, 06:57 PM
One of my oldest friends came to stay at my place for a while from out of town, and has clearly been spending a lot of time among a very particular group of gay guys and totally bought into this hypersexual/quip-machine/beefcake ideal gay that he aspires to be and which is pretty difficult to fit with his "original" personality. It was obvious how uncomfortable with himself he's become, how insecure he now is with his appearance, and how relentlessly he suppresses any warmth in his personality in favour of disparaging half-jokey remarks about strangers. He does have the wit to pull off a lot of it, and it was fun for a little, but conversation topics were a monotonous cycle of hot guys -> working out -> mean things about strangers, and it quickly became unpleasant. This guy used to be the nicest person I've ever met. It was just gutting to be around him. He's mid/late-20s and it seems like he's doing adolescence all over again, but worse.

Domandapiano
06-22-2014, 10:35 PM
Nothing really bothers me about being queer.

The most infuriating thing to behold are gay men who "only want to date guys who act like dudes/men" because fuck gender stereotypes and fuck anyone who thinks that there are certain boxes one must "tick" to "be a man". But that is mainly a societal thing that is highlighted by quote on quote "masculine gay men".

That really has nothing to do with me being queer though, so woo.

Octopussy
06-23-2014, 03:24 PM
Outrage over prison-themed circuit party (http://www.queerty.com/trans-activist-outraged-by-insensitive-prison-themed-pride-party-for-gay-men-20140614). Apparently it's insensitive to incarceration rates of LGBT's of color (eyeroll x1000), and romanticizes prison rape (have these people even seen porn?) What the fuck is happening to gay people? We have legislators who want to make us second-class citizens (and worse things) but a fucking circuit party is offensive? All of these social justice moaners need to get shipped off to Russia or Uganda, as they seem to get off on the feeling of oppression.

NUHN
06-23-2014, 04:23 PM
But it's not just "a party," it's a pride event, which (I'm under the impression) implies that there's a political component to it. Therefore I think the criticism is appropriate. It's not the biggest deal in the world, no, but it is pretty embarrassing and offensive, yes. So people are inevitably going to comment on it.

Tonic
06-23-2014, 07:08 PM
Outrage over prison-themed circuit party (http://www.queerty.com/trans-activist-outraged-by-insensitive-prison-themed-pride-party-for-gay-men-20140614). Apparently it's insensitive to incarceration rates of LGBT's of color (eyeroll x1000), and romanticizes prison rape (have these people even seen porn?) What the fuck is happening to gay people? We have legislators who want to make us second-class citizens (and worse things) but a fucking circuit party is offensive? All of these social justice moaners need to get shipped off to Russia or Uganda, as they seem to get off on the feeling of oppression.

Please... Outrage is getting so old, especially outrage over things like this. People have fantasized about prison since forever. Also, it's called PRISON OF LOVE not Prison of OMG Rape! People just LOVE getting offended especially by things that don't matter - that way they don't actually have to do anything but talk (or type) a lot ABOUT BEING OUTRAGED! :eek::mad:

Octopussy
06-23-2014, 08:31 PM
But it's not just "a party," it's a pride event, which (I'm under the impression) implies that there's a political component to it. Therefore I think the criticism is appropriate. It's not the biggest deal in the world, no, but it is pretty embarrassing and offensive, yes. So people are inevitably going to comment on it.

Pfft. It's summer, everything is a "pride event".

Dan
06-24-2014, 06:12 AM
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of trans activists policing gay men. Fuck off.

lovecraft
06-24-2014, 07:34 PM
Ok this can be a local issue but whatever.One or two years ago there was a video that became viral in here that involves two older man kissing with each other.Obviously insufferable religious heterosexuals insulted them,saying it was a big sin blabla.But what i did not get was, at that time younger homosexuals jumped on that bandwagon and made blogs about how these guys are sick in the head,it is one of the ugliest things that they've ever seen.They were basically trying to convince the same people who labelled them as "lustful sinners who basically lose their minds when they see a dick"(at least here in my country.),that they are ok and they are not like that guys.

Like wtf? What is wrong with two older men kissing? What would you do when you grow older,marry a woman just for the sake of approval of these bigots ? I was at lost and i still am.I just don't like living here.

I'm sorry(Actually not) if this came as a rant.What bugs me is that the majority of gay people come as very shallow. At least in my country.

Waylon
06-25-2014, 05:56 AM
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of trans activists policing gay men. Fuck off.

Could you elaborate on that?

Dan
06-25-2014, 06:36 AM
Hmm. There's the whole tranny malarkey - I don't think I've ever heard a straight person using that word, yet if a gay man says it, with no ill intent whatsoever, it's considered hate speech. There's the bit about rejecting ENDA at some point for not including trans people, thus leaving gays and lesbians vulnerable to legal discrimination in a number of states. Now this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for trans rights. But that's out of basic human decency, not because I feel some special kinship with trans people. I also (probably controversially) believe that the whole LGBT thing is a bit forced, and the one thing we truly have in common is the discrimination we experience. And seriously, gay men have been forever judged and told what they should be doing from outside the community; there's really no need for a tiny subset from within to keep frowning at us with righteous outrage for whatever dumb shit they can come up with.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
06-25-2014, 01:56 PM
By the same token, I'm already wary of how many gay men are broadsweeping all "trans activists" as being social justice police. Even within the trans community, those who are witch hunting huge supporters like Dan Savage and RuPaul are a small, particularly outspoken subset. I'm very much against hyper political correctness--which in fact is a euphemism for a slightly less intentional censorship--but I don't like how quickly defensive gay men have turned vitriolic towards this abstract, generalized notion of trans activism.

Banjee
06-25-2014, 02:42 PM
I don't think I've ever heard a straight person using that word, yet if a gay man says it, with no ill intent whatsoever, it's considered hate speech.



"Girl, you are a Hot Tranny Mess," or calling someone's plastic surgery "Tranny face" is how I've typically heard gay men use it... and, I fail to see how it's a shinning endorsement of Trans culture. Ultimately, I think that the transphobia in the gay community is weirdly rooted in a) misogyny and (ironically) gender conformity and, let's be real, gay men can be very misogynist and b) the oppressed doing their own oppressing (the trans community is NOT the gay community-- sure some of our struggles overlap, but there are also very distinct experiences). I'll admit: I've said "Hot tranny mess" a couple of times, but I'm not invested in using the word (who is, really??), so it's a quick fix on my part. I do get how to appropriate the word in the way RuPaul was doing on the show and Trannyshack the San Francisco Club, but again, context is really important. Can't wrap my brain around a context that will make "Girl, you are a Hot Tranny Mess" ok.

the context argument is also kind of slippery. And while I throw the word fag around with my friends Ain't NO WAY IN HELL I'll give a straight person the OK to use "Fag" around me, I don't give a shit about a context that would make that ok. back when I was a barista I had a fellow employee that would deliberately use the word fag to talk about smoking cigarettes just to try to humiliate and tease me. Here's where I find a problem with Rupaul's quip of growing a thick skin or that we have bigger problems to fight. Gay folks police language all. the. time. What makes us so privileged that we get to determine what does and doesn't fly for transexuals? we just had a heavy "Don't say 'Gay'" campaign that ran for at least a year. Print Ads, Commercials, Miley Cyrus. If we're being so brave with regards to language, why mount that campaign? Sure we need to grow thick skin, but you still can't call me a faggot; makes me wonder how well a Rupaul game show segment called "Metrosexual or European or Faggot" would work out.

so, I can kind of understand the PC police's pov: yes, the PC police are foaming at the mouth at every use and that's shitty, but they still bring up good points about language and power which shouldn't be discounted just because they are annoying. At this point, the folks in BOTH camps are reaching for the extremes and being annoying as fuck.

Edit: clarity

other pete
06-25-2014, 11:21 PM
It's also not just a random abbreviation, it originally was short for transvestite, so using it to sneer at transexual (or other) women for failing to 'make the grade' of looking like a real woman is... dickish. But it's ultimately the sneering that's the issue whatever term its wrapped around.

Akira
06-26-2014, 09:38 PM
^But is anyone really doing that though? I always interpreted "tranny" as short for transvestite, and "hot tranny mess" as referring to busted, messy drag. It never even occurred to me that tranny had anything to do with transgender people. I don't use the word but I think it's silly to scold drag queens when they use it. Anyways, this has probably been discussed to death so I shall diminish and go into the west.

Ms. Shart O'Nay
06-27-2014, 05:21 PM
I've definitely heard uninformed outsiders use "tranny" because they don't know trans terminology, but intra-community, I have only ever heard "tranny" in the sense that Akira's talking about--busted and crusted drag, or some variation thereof. And when bigots are being bigots--of course this is all purely anecdotal, but I did grow up in the south & lived in Boston, which I found horribly phobic--slurs used against non gender conforming people tend to be more along the lines of "he-she" or "chick's a dude!" Doesn't discount the argument at all, but I just have honestly never once heard anyone use "tranny" as a derogatory term in relation to an actual trans-identified individual.

Lágnætti
07-03-2014, 02:51 PM
I also (probably controversially) believe that the whole LGBT thing is a bit forced, and the one thing we truly have in common is the discrimination we experience.

I remember you saying this to me (specifically in regard to gay men and lesbians) years ago and me not really getting it. There's actually an article in the Beeb today about the exact same subject. Very interesting with regard to the history of the movement and the abandonment of the Gay Liberation movement by lesbians because of entrenched sexism.

Viewpoint: Should gay men and lesbians be bracketed together? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28130472)

other pete
07-03-2014, 03:30 PM
Julie Blindel is an engaging speaker but she's opposed to pretty much everything.

I know plenty of gay women with whom I have a lot more in common, in terms of "our gay experience", than I do other gay men. Coming out experiences can be remarkably similar or completely different, and gender is just one thing on a long list of causes of that - in my experience class, family politics, religion, usually shape it more than gender on its own. So I view sexuality as an attribute rather than a personality-defining genre as Blindel, and a lot of activists, tend to. Narrow labelling of sexualities is oppressive, you don't fix that by adding more labels, you fix it by remembering they labels are only footnotes anyway and people are always more interesting than that.

IMOoo.

P.S. To answer the question: "ONLY IF THE LESBIANS PUT UP THE BRACKETS, LOL"

EnjoyJoy
07-11-2014, 12:02 PM
New one: the idea that courting among gay people is drastically different.

Lemme explain, I know that there's the whole bar/club/app scene, and what not, and it's our own world of dating, but I think that's mainly due to our invisibility. No, this comes from this conversation, I was telling a (straight, girl) friend about someone I had a massive crush on, and how we walked home together (because we lived in the same neighbourhood) and how we hugged before we parted.

And she tells me: AWW! You hugged! That's like the gay equivalent to a kiss!
Me: I'm pretty sure the gay equivalent to a kiss is a kiss.

I know this is really stupid and micro but I was a bit upset. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY. Is it that big a deal? Did I overreact? I didn't get visibly mad or anything and just let it slide, so...

plastic•husband
07-11-2014, 09:01 PM
^You got upset because what she said is kind of like a white person patronizing a black person before the Civil Rights Movement. "Oh bless your heart, you got a hug! Maybe someday you can kiss in public too, like my boyfriend and I, and not have to worry about getting murdered!"

Andyland
07-28-2014, 12:19 AM
edit: overshare

Banjee
07-28-2014, 01:15 PM
So carve out a place for yourself. I kind of feel you; I've been in the same situation for a while, and it gets tougher as you get older (at least, in my experience). One thing I've noticed is that only the guys with the big biceps (no matter how odious their personality) are the ones that get invited to all these parties. The vanity and ageism in the community is a bit depressing, but don't let it control what you want to do. Hop on a ferry, rent a room, and go to the t-dance, by yourself if you have to. You'll meet more of your kind-- it may take a while, but you will.:)

EnjoyJoy
07-29-2014, 12:25 PM
A friend of mine just posted an article about Andreja Pejic, with the headline "Androgynous model Andreja Pejic comes out as transgender" a friend, a gay man, commented, "there are too many ambiguous nouns in that headline" and I passive-aggressively replied "I can only count one noun in this headline (model Andreja Pejic, two nouns if you count "model" and "Andreja Pejic").

With every trans person that comes out I'm continuously more and more shocked at the transphobia in the gay community. And the misogyny. A friend of mine once said in jest, "I'd rather be a gay guy than a woman, you know, why would I ever want to lower myself to that level?"

jeth
08-04-2014, 08:53 PM
I am involved with a lot of people in the GenderQueer and Trans movement and so I have been privy to their stories about mistreatment, both intentional and unintentional (i.e. well-meaning people asking deeply probing questions and not understanding how offensive they are for asking, and then expecting an answer, to things that are not their business). Transphobia and the pushback against gender fluidity/non-conformity seems to be institutionalized at this point and it's going to take a lot of work to fix it.

A local food co-op is remodeling and elected to put in three, single-room, all-gender bathrooms after the remodel. The letters to the editor of the co-op's newsletter about the all-gender bathrooms are bordering on histrionic - the number of people advocating for keeping a men's room, a women's room, and an 'other' room is ridiculous. Thankfully the co-op board has told them all to shove it and is proceeding with plans to bring more inclusivity to the store's facilities. I, for one, am glad.

Damien
10-31-2014, 10:14 PM
What bugs me about being queer is there is too little of us. I just found out a guy I have had a huugeee crush on for a very long time, who I thought was gay, is actually into girls and is probably straight. The majority of men I will ever be attracted to will be straight and that makes me feel really depressed and isolated.

Blake
11-04-2014, 04:43 PM
Why are you only attracted to straight men?