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Lágnætti
07-27-2010, 09:17 PM
I mean, just look: Childfree spaces are oppressive! (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people/#comment-317843)

By which she means that children apparently belong in bars and other spaces she may want to plunk her 'mama' (infantilism alert!) self on a night out. She claims that children, far from being developing humans with different needs and attention spans are just a shorter, cuter type of adult and thus not letting them wander unhindered into any given space is oppression, especially when that space contains things that she might want to do. Oppression, seemingly is defined as putting a crimper on her carefree lifestyle of dragging infants to places they'll get bored, overstimulated or hurt. Also, 'control' is a bad word, like fascism or something.

In other words, we have someone who thinks the world should revolve around her whims 24/7 and equates it with feminism or 'activism' or some other word for whining on the internet about being oppressed by people wanting quiet spaces tp stay quiet or expecting you to instill decent behavior in your child(ren) in public.

Bonus points for appearance of parent commenter with 'extra unruly' children with (you guessed it) OMGautism (a few years ago it would have been ADHD) claiming any expectation for her kids to behave is like, mean and cruel. Also see usual dubious claim that only the mean old USA has child-free spaces like bars and that other countries are united in their love of howling and lack of rule-type shit about what children can and can't do, where they can go and what they can watch at the movies. Clearly, this bint doesn't realise people in other countries can read and Americans can travel.

I am ever so fed up with so-called feminist spaces getting cluttered up with this self-centred mooing claiming to be feminism. People who manage to hold two contradictory ideas in their heads - that think children are more special, fragile, important and need of protection than anyone else and thus deserving of special privileges and yet exactly the same as adults in all regards - should not be taken at all seriously, let alone encouraged to hold fort to a chorus of 'me toos!' in spaces reserved for feminist discussion. There's nothing feminist about being a shitty, self-centred parent of either gender.

SMMY
07-27-2010, 11:01 PM
We had a dear friend who insisted on bringing her young son with her to obviously adult functions (cocktail parties and the like). He was a great kid for his age, but definitely didn't belong at adult parties where booze and salty language were present. Whenever we'd have a party and everyone else knew that it was going to be an adult event, they made babysitting arrangements and came ready to enjoy themselves. It became awkward when she would arrive with this young child in tow, like a date. He would be there in the midst of a bunch of adults who were clearly puzzled by his presence. We tried every way possible to politely tell this friend that these events were for adults without actually telling her to not bring him. One of our friends finally spoke up and kind of embarrassed her, but honestly I was so grateful that someone addressed the 8 year old gorilla in the room. Just because he was a really great kid, didn't make him into a mini-adult. He's now grownup and a lovely person, but had a terrible time making friends in his own age bracket, in part because of his mother's insistence on having most of his social interactions be with adults.

fox in socks
07-27-2010, 11:27 PM
give me a fucking children-are-people-too break. really? discrimination? not having a baby in a bar is on par with with racism and sexism? it is? how entitled. so if i own a art gallery featuring, i dont know, glass, paintings whatever...i shouldnt exclude against your loud, unruly, "not to be controlled" child on the grounds that i am "discriminating"? seriously?

surely this woman would be in a strop if i insisted her young ever so bright little child get a job, work in fields a la other, more accepting, family based cultures. discrimination and all. horrible argument. I dont go to the state fair expecting intelligent discourse and i dont go to saturdays at the science center expecting it to be child free. but i do expect child free zones at an r rated movie, a nightclub, a stripclub, evenings at the pub, a silent auction, wine night at late at the tate, etc. dont discriminate against my desire for quiet. if i bitch about kid noise at chuck e cheese, the argument is valid, but if i dont want to hear about barbie and teletubbies when im watching reservoir dogs, i think thats only fair.

as an aside, those who wank on about more family-oriented, utopia cultures fail to recognize the occasional negative aspects of said cultures, e.g. traditional, occasionally oppressive, female roles, less than modern technologies. its a convenient argument for mommies and fundies alike but rarely filled with truth.

and as another aside, "discrimination" against children isnt even in the same ballpark as feminism.

NUHN
07-27-2010, 11:32 PM
Omigod, this passage makes me sick:


my daughter, aza, is a person. a three year old person. a funny, cute, bad-ass, curly haired person who loves to dance and draw, wearing short skirts, watching pink videos, and talking on the phone. frankly, she is probably cooler than you are. she is definitely cooler than i am.

Yes, I'm sure if I asked her her opinion of Isadora Duncan or Jackson Pollock she'd really have scintillating comments. And I've never met a three year old girl who likes the color pink or likes to flop around and "dance" before, how interesting!! Clearly this child is 'gifted' and belongs hobnobbing with full-fledged adults and will only elevate the conversation and ambiance for thirty-somethings.

Ugh, it's just so gross. I cannot stand people who think their child is so special. Of course you love your child and you as their parent revel in their "uniqueness" but guess what - the rest of us don't give a good fuck about their short skirts and ability to talk on the phone.

NUHN
07-27-2010, 11:38 PM
Also the title - "Shorter (yes), cuter (says you), more honest people (please!)"

SMMY
07-27-2010, 11:48 PM
The blogger's description of herself:


my name is maia. some of yall know me, most of yall dont.
i am a black ndn queer mama to a three year old bad-ass princess. live in cairo, egypt. write for a few blogs like guerrilla mama medicine (http://guerrillamamamedicine.wordpress.com/) and flip flopping joy (http://flipfloppingjoy.com/). run a zine distro with my girl aaminah at thaura zine distro (http://thauradistro.blogspot.com/). am a poet, outlaw midwife (http://outlawmidwife.wordpress.com/), anti utilitarian anarchist, visual artist, and all around dredlocked diva.
i blog about palestine and the middle east and africa, motherhood, reproductive justice and health, home birth and abortions, community building, survival, the fall of industrial civilization, and fairies.


clearly she is more important than the rest of us plebes and deserves special privileges.

fox in socks
07-27-2010, 11:49 PM
entitlement case in point. this womans rant about airports/airplanes. im guessing shed find it discriminatory to have to pay more for a ticket so her kid could have the flight attendant provide her kid with stickers--you know, rather than the parent addressing such things.



Ledasmom 7.27.2010 at 8:10 am
Airplanes – that’s a tough one, and the airlines do very little to make it easier.
There’s nowhere for a small child to put their feet, except on their own seat or on the seat in front; not really comfortable to dangle one’s legs for three hours.
If there’s a play area in the airport, it’s generally just one, inconvenient for most of the gates, and doesn’t allow for the sort of vigorous running and play that a child may need after being on a flight.
There may be preboarding for younger children, but there’s no getting off the plane early at the other end.

If this was right after we’d gotten back from vacation, I’d have a longer list – I have often wished that airlines would offer family flights where a greater degree of lively behavior on the part of children is allowed for (and why don’t they realize that handing out, for instance, stickers to children at about an hour into the flight would forestall a lot of the objectionable behavior? Anything of that sort is much more exciting to my children that whatever they may have brought along in their bags. Maybe a stash of children’s books on the plane?). Nobody wants their children to be annoying, but after seven hours of flying/waiting for flights/being stuck on the ground, annoyance happens.

Restaurants – it would be rather nice if they had the equivalent of an old-fashioned cinema’s crying room, for those whose kids are having trouble being quiet. Somewhere to go that doesn’t equal leaving the restaurant, should there be trouble.
Difficult to balance the rights and needs of all patrons, but it might be useful to look at the sort of practices that set children up to fail at being non-annoying.its this attitude that drives me fucking nutty. really. REALLY? its the airline's/restaurant's responsibility to provide this shit? im surprised she doesnt want the world to provide golden paths for her child to travel through life on. sweet jesus.

fox in socks
07-27-2010, 11:56 PM
i also am still very confused on how children are "oppressed" and "do not have the rights they deserve" as "tracey" informs me is a pressing issue. as is apparently the issue of "adult privilege", which is of course on par with "white privilege". absolutely it is.

Lágnætti
07-27-2010, 11:57 PM
my name is mai’a. some of y’all know me, most of y’all don’t.
i am a black ndn queer mama to a three year old bad-ass princess. live in cairo, egypt. write for a few blogs like guerrilla mama medicine and flip flopping joy. run a zine distro with my girl aaminah at thaura zine distro. am a poet, outlaw midwife, anti utilitarian anarchist, visual artist, and all around dredlocked diva.
i blog about palestine and the middle east and africa, motherhood, reproductive justice and health, home birth and abortions, community building, survival, the fall of industrial civilization, and fairies. spoilt twat with delusions of grandeur.

That's better.

Seriously, guerrilla mama medicine and fairies? Please shoot yourself in the uterus for the good of mankind.

SMMY
07-28-2010, 12:04 AM
but the fairies part made me lol. Can't we keep that part?

ETA: Is "flip flopping joy" anything to do with footwear or is it a radical political stance. You choose!

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 12:05 AM
REALLY? its the airline's/restaurant's responsibility to provide this shit? im surprised she doesnt want the world to provide golden paths for her child to travel through life on. sweet jesus.

I'm sure she does. Again, one claim to extensive special needs and privileges, one to exactly the same, just shorter.

Some airlines do provide crayons and stuff like TVs with games and so on. You just have to pay for the privilege and fly with the better airlines. You won't get that shit travelling on kid!fly!free! cheap shit airlines for a reason and that reason is you get what you pay for and when you pay next to nothing, you get next to nothing. Anyway, wouldn't a decent parent bring that stuff with them? When I flew as a little kid, I took a book and a stuffed toy with me and somehow managed to go entire flights without shrieking or needing to be exercised like an animal up and down the aisles. Oh and if I'd have kicked a seat for fun, my mum would have kicked me.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 12:06 AM
but the fairies part made me lol. Can't we keep that part?


i am a spoilt twat fairie with delusions of grandeur

Better?

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 02:16 PM
I noticed someone in the comments was bawwing about their kid not being allowed in some waiting room at a medical facility. Someone who actually works in a hospital schooled them as to the why of this dreadful discrimination:


I’m a nurse. I work at a hospital that has a no-kids-under-sixteen on the floor, even in the waiting room, policy. This is why:

This last winter, a family brought in a child to a waiting room, and a patient left her room to see the child. The patient then returned to her room, and (in a series of mechanations I won’t go into here), an entire ward of people with severely compromised immune systems ended up being infected with a common childhood illness.

Six of those folks ended up in my ICU. Two of them died. Horribly. I held one man as he bled out because of a liver hemorrhage directly attributable to a crazy complication of being exposed to common childhood diseases when you’ve got no white cells.

Yeah, it sucks that your kid can’t sit in a freaking waiting room, and I understand your frustration. Believe me: I’ve felt it myself when I’ve had to tell families with no money and fewer options that their children simply could not stay in the waiting room on any floor, and had to leave.

But there’s a reason behind it that isn’t just blanket hostility in the US toward children. Kids can carry bugs that adults barely even notice, and a child coughing or sneezing–or in some cases, even touching surfaces–can spread viruses or bacteria that can be deadly to really sick folks.

We lost two people to a really common infection that affects most adults no more than a cold does. We had to shut down an entire ward of people, and move them to a different hospital, so that their bodies would not reject the life-saving transplants that they’d gotten (from, I might add, families who’d lost loved ones themselves). Dozens of transplant candidates had to be rescheduled or pushed around on our list because our unit was closed, and four people were in hell for weeks and weeks, even if they didn’t die. All because of one child with the sniffles.

Sometimes rules are there for a reason.


This is interesting to me because i've just returned from a large city centre hospital myself. I had an out-patient procedure but I noticed posters around setting out a new set of rules to help prevent infection on wards; no more than two adult visitors per bed, nobody with a cold or other infection allowed to visit a ward, wash your damn hands before entering a ward and here's the one that will no doubt start some idiots screeching: no under-sixteens allowed on wards as vistors at all. I think the new rules are splendid because one of the worst places to be when you're ill and prone to infection is an open ward because of idiots coming in with lovely new germs for everyone to experience and as the poster above points out, some childhood illnesses can basically kill people who are already very ill.

other pete
07-28-2010, 02:28 PM
http://www.unforumzed.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngThere may be preboarding for younger children, but there’s no getting off the plane early at the other end.

I have often wished that airlines would offer family flights where a greater degree of lively behavior on the part of children is allowed for



Can you imagine at embarkation time?

"All the parents with really SPECIAL children to the front of the queue now please. That's SPECIAL CHILDREN ONLY - you know who you are, and 'thank you for your co-operation' to those of lesser breeding stock."

Entitlement Jam at Gate 7!

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 02:32 PM
Haha. Someone called her out for that in the comments and was promptly scolded for trying to impose oppressive grammar rules or being meeeeeean or some such wank. Anyway, I think the 'great writer' is code for 'she's my friend, right!'. As for inspiring, well, she inspires me to vomit and wish an amusingly fiery death on her. Does that count?

Medusa
07-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Omigod, this passage makes me sick:

My eyes rolled out of my head, too.

It's annoying enough when parents want to pretend that their child can get along well in adult situations- it's worse when we all have to hear about how totes awesome their kid is for doing normal kid things and how they're a budding, precocious little genius in a pink tutu because they're so EXPRESSIVE.

NOTE TO PARENTS: YOUR KID IS NOT THE SMARTEST KID IN THE WORLD WITH AMAZING, UNTAPPED ABILITIES THAT RENDER HIM/HER WORTHY OF BEING INCLUDED IN ALL ADULT FUNCTIONS.


REALLY? its the airline's/restaurant's responsibility to provide this shit? im surprised she doesnt want the world to provide golden paths for her child to travel through life on. sweet jesus.
I wish they'd provide stickers and books! There's no way that I can do this! There's no access to this at an airport if I realize too late that I need it! GIVE ME STICKERS AND BOOKS!

Don't most airlines try to cater to families now, anyway? The last time I flew, the seating was business class --- early bird seating --- family seating --- the rest of the numbers via Southwest.

This stuff is insane to me. Parents have gotten by for a very long time without special accommodations for children. A "crying room" at a restaurant? Take them outside, take them to the bathroom, or take them to the car. In-flight entertainment? Good god, think of the options we have now! When I was little, my mom packed me a bag with books, coloring books, and a puzzle. If my (ACTUALLY and not ADHD) autistic bro can handle a flight when his sensitivity to loud noises is such that he normally FLIPS THE FUCK OUT over the sound of a jet engine, I think you can corral your kids, too. We got my brother some heavy-duty headphones to block out noise, his favorite book, a doll and a pillow. Pretty fucking easy to, you know, be a PARENT.

But none of this really matters anyway because I snicker uncontrollably when I read the author's description of herself. The fucking guerrilla blog and zine stuff kills me. No one thinks you're funny except other members of the super edgy mommy club, and no one thinks you're a decent writer so fuck off with your worthless fucking blogs and zines and focus on not being the world's shittiest feminist/parent all at once.

Medusa
07-28-2010, 03:25 PM
Also - what?

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people/#comment-317559

Moderator explains why they let the OP post:


???? I see no evidence of this great writing, unless and inability to hit the "shift" key and use punctuation is great writing.

She's a shit writer, and I don't say that just because her ideas are ludicrous.

I want to be a social justice activist, too. Let me post some blog entries about how, like, awful shit is in Iran mixed in with stuff about my perfectly awesome lil dudette. She's like, aware. I have a tattoo of her. Yeah, that's right, I have a tattoo of my KID. Where are your priorities? Some feminist you are...

Whappo
07-28-2010, 03:38 PM
He's now grownup and a lovely person, but had a terrible time making friends in his own age bracket, in part because of his mother's insistence on having most of his social interactions be with adults.
Oh damn. My parents hosted a few parties when I was around that age and I was totally there, and this probably explains a lot about me. Although my parents never insisted on my social interactions being with adults, it happened a lot and I was a fairly precocious kid who enjoyed sitting at the grown up's table and felt "mature for his age" (and when a kid feels mature for their age they PROBABLY/DEFINITELY AREN'T).

Also the title - "Shorter (yes), cuter (says you), more honest people (please!)"
Pet peeve! People calling children "honest." There is a huge difference between honesty and lacking the social grace to filter the shit that spills forth from your yap. I've never understood how people can think that children being "honest" is cute or forgivable - they can be pretty hurtful (well, as hurtful as a tiny person who mines their nose for snot can possibly be), more so when their parents refuse to correct them.

Children being an oppressed minority is giving me flashbacks to the most classic of classic threads, btw. Snotminers, Yankees/Mets racism, knickerfucker glory!

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 03:46 PM
Whoever Lex is, I love her:


I think it is laughable – LAUGHABLE – that someone who rejects the feminist label expects feminists to somehow commiserate with the plight of a child who is not welcome with open arms at a bar. A BAR. Can we think about this with our brains for two seconds? Feminism (the belief that women should be treated equally), regardless of the specifics of how you think this can be actualized in society seems an absurd thing to reject by someone advocating for parental and child rights. Your essay reads as if the underlying thesis statement is “I don’t understand the clamoring for equal right among women, but I nevertheless demand you all treat my five year old as if she were just a small adult irregardless of the obvious behavioral, physical, emotional and intellectual differences there are between children and adults.”

Good god, people like you are insufferable and I have no compassion for you when you might find yourself at a party near the crack of dawn and your compatriots don’t want to hear the incessant whine of a kid that should probably be in BED.


Pet peeve! People calling children "honest." There is a huge difference between honesty and lacking the social grace to filter the shit that spills forth from your yap.

Yes, quite. No wait, it's cute when some kid loudly announces that someone is FAT or asks WHY IS THAT WOMAN BLACK? or tells the entire world I DID A POO. Apparently. I think someone of these mothers are pretty much kids themselves, mentally. Certainly their need to identify with or glorify everything childlike would point to that conclusion given that most normal adult parents don't get so defensive about this stuff.


Children being an oppressed minority is giving me flashbacks to the most classic of classic threads, btw. Snotminers, Yankees/Mets racism, knickerfucker glory!

Yes! Which reminds me - I saw Rob knocking around here the other day. You have to wonder if a certain other person is far behind.

NUHN
07-28-2010, 03:51 PM
???? I see no evidence of this great writing, unless and inability to hit the "shift" key and use punctuation is great writing.

Me neither. And how insane that she has the stones to write a piece for a feminist website and say in her writing, "Yeah, I'm not a feminist. (shrugs)" WTF! That's like me being invited to write something for the NAACP and saying, "yeah, I don't support civil rights. Whatevs. Now on to my truly fascinating child who's so much cooler than all of you!!! She wears PINK bitches!!!"

Medusa
07-28-2010, 03:52 PM
The "honesty of children" shit is one of my biggest parent pet peeves, too.

I was an "honest" child for the most part, too. But if I'd said "honest" shit to people when I saw them, I would have been in HUGE trouble

I haven't had caffeine this morning so my anger is growing by leaps and bounds (and it most likely shows in my response on the blog itself, because I go from barely restrained to pure contempt quickly and it's most likely unreadable as a result), but what pisses me off the most about this is the notion of "rights" and the notion that children are entitled to be excluded from social restriction by virtue of their innocence/honesty/special or innate intelligence.

It all makes me think about Malcolm Gladwell's ranting against the idea of genius or talent as a trait you're born with and simply have on hand, in abundance, rendering any effort or discipline unnecessary. I think it's some sort of Baby Genius Napoleon Complex: My baby learned to read at age 2 and she is SOO creative, treat her well because we may well have Marie Curie II on our hands!

Fetus Smoothie
07-28-2010, 04:49 PM
MAnd how insane that she has the stones to write a piece for a feminist website and say in her writing, "Yeah, I'm not a feminist. (shrugs)"

The OP might be a womanist -- a woman of color who rejects the feminist label because of middle-class white feminist assholery. Unfortunately she and the other womanists in the thread, like bfp ("brownfemipower") at #354, ASSume that childfreedom is strictly a middle-class white phenomenon. While I don't disagree that some white CFers make ignorant comments such as those about eugenics that are of course going to alarm PoC....some CFers are PoC, you twits.

I was amused when one of them claimed it was "obnoxious" to refer to the OP as "the author" rather than her first name. Then a few people pointed out that in their cultures, this is a sign of respect. Guess "cultural sensitivity" only goes one way with some folks....

There's so much infuriating bullshit in that thread that it'd take 20 pages of comments here to call it all out. [angry] Rather, I'll just link to a handful of the, actually, many good, sane, intelligent responses that no one else has quoted yet:

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318074
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318079
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318084
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318177
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318340
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318158
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/27/shorter-cuter-more-honest-people#comment-318173

BTW, I told Gog about this thread, and decided to sign up here when she linked me. I was on Atz for a short while years ago, but lost my login info, couldn't re-register, and got no help from the mods. From what I've heard, it's now a joke anyway...

Medusa
07-28-2010, 04:57 PM
It is a bit of a joke. Welcome! I'm glad you joined us.

Autumn
07-28-2010, 05:12 PM
The first thing that struck me about her rant was the beginning:


recently, i was hanging out at a bar, when a friend called and invited me to come hang out for a few drinks and chill time as the sun came up. cool. then, i heard a bit of whispers in the background and the question posed to me: is aza with you?


She takes her kid to bars? So much that her friends have to ask when she's drinking at the bar if her three-year-old is with her?! Does she drive home with that child in a vehicle? Does she take her kid to the hooka lounge? Strip club? Drug dealer? There seems to be no situation that is off limits in her opinion. Social services alert, please.

Fetus Smoothie
07-28-2010, 05:28 PM
Moooo'a wrote a whole new post about how mean everyone is to her and her cuntsplat!
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/28/aint-i-a-mama/
Basic points, so you don't have to read her shitty writing anymore: "Mamas" are superior to feminists, all white feminists are racist, one of her favorite comments was from another twit who thinks that "MOTHERS" are the only women who help girls, and, of course, everybody was "attacking" her.

[rock] [pan]

SMMY
07-28-2010, 05:29 PM
Some of the responses from the parents posting there reminds me of certain fundies in the states wailing about being oppressed Christians. wtf? You're the majority and you already have far more sway on public policy than any other religion. The same is true for parents/families, there are far more of them than child-free adults and they already get special treatment and benefits that the child-free don't. And I understand why (social contract and all), but why pretend otherwise? You and your child are not oppressed because you can't bring her to daddy's favorite strip club.

Medusa
07-28-2010, 05:34 PM
everybody was "attacking" her.

[rock] [pan]

You do not have the right to a child free environment
You do not have the right to a child free environment

Gee, who started with the "attack?"

Whappo
07-28-2010, 05:35 PM
The first thing that struck me about her rant was the beginning:

[...]

She takes her kid to bars? So much that her friends have to ask when she's drinking at the bar if her three-year-old is with her?! Does she drive home with that child in a vehicle? Does she take her kid to the hooka lounge? Strip club? Drug dealer? There seems to be no situation that is off limits in her opinion. Social services alert, please.
That's what stood out to me too! Your kid is excluded from certain spaces not just for the benefit of everyone else, but for the child's own safety.

I can't get over this entitled, lazy moron.

Also, lol - this:

feminist is to mama like yellow is to:
waking up with the first rays of light hitting your face as the sun rises over the ocean and you stare into the sun’s reflection in the water and then jump in and swim celebrating this new day.
the colostrum nectar that i breastfed my daughter her first days after birth
the color of my mixed race daughter cheek as she sleep at night
the crushed wildflowers that aza picks in the park and then brings to me saying in her singsong voice: mama i have a present for you!
Is so "childless women are devoid of love, life and laughter." Like, you're seeing yellow, guys. She's seeing crushed wildflower yellow and udderly butterly yellow. NEXT LEVEL SHIT.

Autumn
07-28-2010, 05:37 PM
That's what stood out to me too! Your kid is excluded from certain spaces not just for the benefit of everyone else, but for the child's own safety.


EXACTLY. It's not about trying to please the child-free or whatever, it's simply that certain spaces are neither safe nor appropriate for underage humans, even if they do dance, draw and are cooler than everyone else.

stillorbiting
07-28-2010, 05:40 PM
waking up with the first rays of light hitting your face as the sun rises over the ocean and you stare into the suns reflection in the water and then jump in and swim celebrating this new day.

Wait, what? I can't do this unless I have a child? SO MANY MORNINGS OF MY LIFE, A LIE. DAMN YOU CURSED WOMB

SMMY
07-28-2010, 05:40 PM
Honestly, got to ask - is this a serious blog or just a wanking spot for people who took a minor in women's studies in college? Some of the responses are thoughtful, but most are just really embarrassing.

And I'm also sad that mai’a doesn't have a functioning caps lock key.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 05:47 PM
Oh Andrew, with your man-ist mockery. THE NEXT LEVEL is sheer poet-tree. Poet-tree that you 'publish' in your own zine. Your guerilla mama zine. With a fairie on the front. A titleeching fairie who stays out all night at bars with your baby because that's how you crush the patriachy.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Moooo'a wrote a whole new post about how mean everyone is to her and her cuntsplat!
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/28/aint-i-a-mama/
Basic points, so you don't have to read her shitty writing anymore: "Mamas" are superior to feminists, all white feminists are racist, one of her favorite comments was from another twit who thinks that "MOTHERS" are the only women who help girls, and, of course, everybody was "attacking" her.

[rock] [pan]

Also, she can't spell 'lavender' properly.

PS. Best s/n ever.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 05:55 PM
I feel better too. Coincidence?

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 06:07 PM
Btw, Ms. Smoothie, is this you:


“Fuck feminism” = OK.

“Fuck you, your entitlement attitude, your gender essentialism and uterus glorification, and your shitty writing” = not OK, and I bet it doesn’t get approved.

Typical of the logic!fail I’ve come to expect from Feministe and its regulars, however.

Oh, btw, to the womanists here: There are childfree WoC. Just so you know.



If so, [post28].

Frangipani
07-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Is so "childless women are devoid of love, life and laughter." Like, you're seeing yellow, guys. She's seeing crushed wildflower yellow and udderly butterly yellow. NEXT LEVEL SHIT.

rofls I cant dot you again but i would. dots for chuckles

Fetus Smoothie
07-28-2010, 06:19 PM
Honestly, got to ask - is this a serious blog or just a wanking spot for people who took a minor in women's studies in college? Some of the responses are thoughtful, but most are just really embarrassing.

They used to be the former. They've been the latter for a long time now. They still think they're the former.


And I'm also sad that maia doesn't have a functioning caps lock key brain.

Fixed that for ya.


Btw, Ms. Smoothie, is this you:

Ooooooh! They let my comment through!!! :D But I bet it's only because I added the bit about it not getting approved. They had to prove me wrong, bwaaaaa!!!!

SMMY
07-28-2010, 06:25 PM
Is there such a thing as a vanity feminist blog? Cause I get the feeling this might very well be one, by reading some of the blog authors' profiles.
and the idea of shopping on their blog? lol! It would be embarrassing enough to be a member of such a place, much less announce it to the world via one of their t-shirts.

SMMY
07-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Oh and Kari, you stirred up a hornet's nest on that blog with your post.

Shelby 7.28.2010 at 2:14 pm
@Kari; Hold the FUCK up. Are you for real tryna tell non white women about our own lives? And what we should be *grateful* for?!?! Let me tell you what feminism has done FOR ME because obviously have not even an iota of a clue:
– Used anti-Black RACISM to get YOUR right to vote. Throwing my community under the bus
– sterilized and experimented on my body without my consent to give YOU choice and ME “population control” ie. fucking genocide
– Used my body to feed your kids so you could get your equality in a capitalist system that is DEPENDENT ON my perpetual slavery
– Stolen our children to “save” them from our “backward” culture and the poverty YOU caused in our communities
– Supported politicians who voted to DROP BOMBS ON US and called them “pro women”
And you tell US that WE should be grateful? Feminism has used bodies like mine as stepping stones and cannon fodder since DAY ONE and you are telling us to be GRATEFUL?!?! What in the holy fuck is wrong with you?



you threw her WHOLE COMMUNITY under the bus!!!!!
How could you?
And how did you get so strong?
Soup?

Frangipani
07-28-2010, 07:44 PM
links?

SMMY
07-28-2010, 07:45 PM
There are a bunch, but that particular one is here (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/28/aint-i-a-mama/#comment-318630)

Whappo
07-28-2010, 07:51 PM
I feel like a weight has been lifted now that I know that all white guilt ever should rest on Kari's shoulders. That BITCH.

(hold the FUCK up!) (shrugs)

Frangipani
07-28-2010, 08:09 PM
No kari, clearly feminists are responsible for genocide and lower class *cough* situations.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 08:22 PM
Ah, just pop back and tell them you're Hirsi Ali, you love America and your shoes and watch their little brains explode.

Or you could explain that any right she has as a woman in society specifically comes from the dread feminism. Also, given she seems to spend her time fucking about the globe on activist mercy missions, making zines and staying out until sunrise at bars with her 3 year-old when she's not lecturing every other woman on the internet about the precise amount of guilt they should feel, I think feminism has done a pretty spiffy job by her. Or maybe that's because her husband supports her arse and every whim. Who can tell?

Medusa
07-28-2010, 08:34 PM
and the idea of shopping on their blog? lol! It would be embarrassing enough to be a member of such a place, much less announce it to the world via one of their t-shirts.

Pisses me off because they're playing right into the hands of detractors.

No, feminism doesn't mean that you're NOT ALLOWED to give a fuck about fashion, shoes, makeup or any other facet of what's now considered "femininity" by society (whole 'nother can of beans, but whatever).

What it DOES mean, I hope, is that a feminist who has an opportunity to talk about their beliefs would devote entries on a FEMINIST BLOG to discussing true feminist issues--- like, what the fuck is happening to women all over the world right now.

It actually reminds me of why I'm starting to hate Jezebel more and more. I mean, that was never particularly stellar in terms of feminist reporting but it gets worse and worse. Their "feminist" offerings are usually just trite musings or sad attempts to start an e-fight with the Daily Show producers (god, that was an embarrassment to read).

I'd say we should start a blog to actually start talking about shit that matters but that blog would suck, too, because most blogs really do fucking blow. Personal blog? OK, there's no pretense there. But Guerrilla Poetry Zine Momma shit doesn't appeal to anyone.

SMMY
07-28-2010, 08:55 PM
I can't help myself, every time I go back and read the new comments there, it is just such a joke. A lot of those responses are like a bad parody from an early Woody Allen movie.
They really are crazy. Now they're debating the definition of "mama".

*waiting for them to decide how to frame and define the term "baby"*

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 08:55 PM
Also, Ellie is apparently in need of medication, I mean psychiatric oppression:


Fuck feminism. No, I mean Feminism. Or FEMINISM. I said fuck feminism, not feminism as you understand it, but feminism as I meant it, without qualifying that it was different than another very common understanding of feminism. Fuck you for being a feminist, or a feminist, or another kind of feminist. Feminists have done nothing but hurt me, okay well maybe those feminists, but not these feminists, but fuck feminists.

You can’t understand what it is without being a mama. Except you don’t have to be a mama to be a mama. A mama can be a mama or she can’t be a mama, a man can be a mama, a sibling can be a mama, but only a mama is a *real* mama. And fuck you if you misunderstand what I mean by mama. Fuck you, and your privilege, and don’t you dare say I have privilege, because you have no idea what my experience is.


It's like someone with one term of women's studies having conniptions on the living room rug. Except the living room is the internet and they're embarrassing themselves in front of more than their mum.

Then again, I'm not a 'mama' so clearly I cannot understand and am, in fact, the equivalent of Stalin, Dr. Mengele and a KKK rally at Century21. OMG SHOES. Wait, no, that's Kari.

SMMY
07-28-2010, 09:00 PM
Also, Ellie is apparently in need of medication, I mean psychiatric oppression:



It's like someone with one term of women's studies having conniptions on the living room rug. Except the living room is the internet and they're embarrassing themselves in fromnt of more than their mum.

Then again, I'm not a 'mama' so clearly I cannot understand and am, in fact, the equivalent of Stalin, Dr. Mengele and a KKK rally at Century21. OMG SHOES. Wait, no, that's Kari.


I read her comment and just assumed she had Tourette's. ;l


ETA: Kari is evidently a poopiehead who hasn't doesn't understand the dangerz of feminism (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/28/aint-i-a-mama/#comment-318692)

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 09:05 PM
You can’t understand what it is without being a fuck. Except you don’t have to be a fuck to be a fuck. A fuck can be a fuck or she can’t be a fuck, a man can be a fuck, a sibling can be a fuck, but only a fuck is a *real* fuck. And fuck you if you misunderstand what I mean by fuck. Fuck you, and your fuck, and don’t you dare say I have fuck, because you have no idea what my fuck is.

Where's Ian McShane when you need him?

Whappo
07-28-2010, 09:09 PM
I'm a bad mama jama, does that count for anything?

Also, I feel like these guys (sorry, mamas) are angry all the time and it's really depressing me. It's making me feel blue. And not the blue of the sky when you wake up because your wailing baby has shat itself, or the sparkly cerulean blue of a stripper's thong as it shimmers in front of you and your sassy 3 year-old. Just blue.

(by "it", I mean the thong, not the stripper. Mamas aren't objects! A mama can object to being an object, and an object can be a mama, but a mama who is an object is not a mama, not a *real* mama. And fuck you if you don't understand my colour analogies, and fuck your greyscale life, mama, and fuck you if you think I'm grayscale, 'cause you don't know a thing about my colour wheel. Mama, I love you. Mama, my friend. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpG40YXh7ms))

SMMY
07-28-2010, 09:10 PM
Where's Ian McShane when you need him?

define Ian McShane. Your fucking Ian McShane or my fucking Ian McShane?
Fuck!

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 09:11 PM
Check your fuck, Andrew. Check your fuck right now.

SMMY
07-28-2010, 09:13 PM
I'm a bad mama jama, does that count for anything?

Also, I feel like these guys (sorry, mamas) are angry all the time and it's really depressing me. It's making me feel blue. And not the blue of the sky when you wake up because your wailing baby has shat itself, or the sparkly cerulean blue of a stripper's thong as it shimmers in front of you and your sassy 3 year-old. Just blue.

Is it the purple-tinged blue of men's balls, when they retract and tighten after reading krazy ranting Feministe posts and fearing that one of those looneys might live near you?

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 09:18 PM
define Ian McShane. Your fucking Ian McShane or my fucking Ian McShane?

McShane. Fuck. Cocksucker. America. There something difficult about that?

Whappo
07-28-2010, 09:18 PM
It's the blue of my balls when I'm checking my fuck, Suze.

http://iheartguts.com/shop/images/medium/testicle-check_med.jpg

Check your fuck regularly. Should you discover any anomalies, hold the fuck up to your GP and they will determine whether or not the anomaly is privileged.

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 09:22 PM
Where's my check your fuck poster?

SMMY
07-28-2010, 09:26 PM
McShane. Fuck. Cocksucker. America. There something difficult about that?

Fucking yes fucking UK fucking Laura Croft fucking tomb fucking Raider
mong!

SMMY
07-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Where's my check your fuck poster?



It got lost on it's way to your privileged mail box.
and by mail box, I mean the object/receptacle by which the patriarchy delivers unto you the edicts to enslave you and your vagina.
and by patriarchy, I mean Kari, of course. That racist cunt!

fox in socks
07-28-2010, 11:03 PM
crazy bitches on your left! i need some terminology updates you guys. feminists: white chicks who want equal rights sans shoes. womanists: brown, black, red and yellow chicks who want equal rights sans shoes. mamas: mothers who live to fight for the freedom and equal rights for childrens, until they turn 18 and then become feminists/womanists. men: useless. lavendar: a color/smell only to be enjoyed by those giving enough to produce future generations of self-entitled fuckcrabs. all of these things are mutually exclusive.

amirite?

Lágnætti
07-28-2010, 11:17 PM
Fucking yes fucking UK fucking Laura Croft fucking tomb fucking Raider
mong!

Mong? Check your righteous fuck right there or I will register my indignation via methods unfit for the eyes even of heathens.

jeth
07-28-2010, 11:43 PM
Okay, let me get this straight (wait, is that offensive too?).

KKKari's opinion is invalidated due to her privilege, and she better not assume the other person has privilege, because she doesn't know of her experiences, yet at the same time Racismama is going to assume KKKari has privilege while not knowing of her experiences and that's okay because she's railing against feminism or she has faeries in her womb or something so it's totally okay to have double standards.

Yes?

fox in socks
07-28-2010, 11:56 PM
that forum is like a hotbed of self-loathing in denial.

Medusa
07-29-2010, 12:48 AM
My head
it exploded

like, totally exploded over all dis shit

SMMY
07-29-2010, 02:04 AM
My head
it exploded

like, totally exploded over all dis shit

check your brains!

Medusa
07-29-2010, 02:30 AM
Girl you better check yourself first, girl,

SMMY
07-29-2010, 02:49 AM
I did, but only the privileged parts.

and they're still going off about Kari's posts. (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/07/28/aint-i-a-mama/#comment-318839) Evidently Kari is extra wrong. Maybe it's because she types out full sentences and uses upper and lower case letters, instead of using text-speak. I don't know, but I do know that several people on that blog need much therapy.

Medusa
07-29-2010, 02:56 AM
I'd love to go and back Kari up but frankly, I'm done with the fucking deal. I won't go back there to read the posts. It's not like you can convince these morons of anything unless you're there to inflate their egos.

It's disappointing to see, because I know that even here there are some big differences of opinion on issues and I think for the most part, we can hash out a discussion that actually involves conceding points or at least learning a thing or two about what others think. There's zero give and take in that discussion. Talk about a missed opportunity.

Lágnætti
07-29-2010, 08:28 AM
It's only worth reading for the rebuttals, many of which are rather splendid. Case in point:


So feminists aren’t mothers? Fuck you right back. You’re saying that only womanists are mothers and feminists….aren’t. Great strawfeminists there.

Fuck feminism, fuck feminists and fuck their obnoxious entitled bullshit attitudes. And fuck all of you who think you did a goddamn thing for my daughter. MOTHERS did that, not you. Mamis, mommies, mothers, M/others–NOT YOU.

Gee, with all these strawfeminists flying around, which feminists? The real mothers and wives who started it, or the mythical child-eating cunts you rail against while you nurture your more-special-than-thou little mini me? Also, if you going to endorse fuck feminism, then stop demanding feminists do shit for you, like pander to your kid at bars and adult parties.

——

srsly, if the common definition for feminism to be treated equal to a man

Yeah, another strawfeminist. Do you even KNOW what feminism is? Or do you just know what the common myths are? .

im not interested in feminism. that is not the goal of the women with whom ive worked. 1/3 of black men are in the prison industrial system. i am working for a different world for my daughter.

A world in which there’s no movement for women that isn’t subsumed, once again, by men? How about the men who AREN’T in jail get off their asses and do something?

And the most revolting thing about all this shit is the way Maia and her mommy enablers demand that other women coo and fawn and use ‘warm energy’ toward her and the kid she says she won’t control—-when she takes her to adult bars and parties.

Basically, this whole shit storm is Maia guilting a bunch of precious enablers into buying into the notion that only mamahood can give a woman any kind of moral standing, and the only way you can redeem yourself is to suck up to whatever obnoxious mama that comes along with their screaming, unschooled, undisciplined, uncontrolled kid.

You can dress up it up any way you want it, but it’s disgusting to see a woman declaring that she’s basically a better woman than you are because she’s not a feminist, she’s had a kid, and she’s going to work on behalf of men who are perfectly capable of doing shit on their own.

jeth
07-29-2010, 10:51 AM
Oh, oh, that last paragraph was fierce. I love it.

fox in socks
07-29-2010, 11:19 AM
apparently you lot have a shit ton to check. feminism wikia (c wot they did thar) is tryna tell you:


Privilege is a concept used in anti-racist, anti-sexist, and similar anti-oppression movements.
Privilege is described as a set of perceived advantages enjoyed by a majority group, who are usually unaware of the privilege they possess.
A privileged person is not necessarily prejudiced (sexist, racist, etc) as an individual, but may be part of a broader pattern of *-ism even though unaware of it.
One tool for understanding privilege is the Privilege checklist.
Common terms used to help make people aware of their privilege is "Check your privilege" or "Your privilege is showing."
Many people, when asked to check their privilege, respond with "So? Am I meant to feel guilty? I didn't choose to be white/male/whatever." A good article addressing this is "Check my what?" On privilege and what we can do about it."

its nice to know that if youre in the majority for anything, you instantly obtain privileged status which of course you are to feel shame for. see: white guilt, xenocentricism, evergreen state college and metrosexuality.

source it: check your face (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege)

Whappo
07-29-2010, 11:43 AM
"You don't have to be posh to be privileged." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4)

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00169/peopro_169412s.jpg

Anyway, my privilege only shows when I forget to do my fly up after going to the bathroom. And it's not like people don't want to look at it.

gyabou
07-29-2010, 12:36 PM
Oh, you guys have stumbled into the hornet's nest of racefail/privilege wank, haven't you? It's the cancer that's killing some areas of fandom right now. Well, to a certain extent I agree with some basic principles -- yeah, most people do have some sort of privilege. But it usually only gets trotted out for white people, lol. It's like a game, where the more pieces of privilege you get stuck with, the more you lose!

So I have

1 white privilege
1 middle class privilege
1 education privilege
1 cisgendered privilege

But in my favor I do lack male privilege and straight privilege (though who knows, some might complain otherwise if they feel bisexual doesn't count ;l).

It's activism for ninnies, basically, and at its most extreme level results in one "enlightened" person telling anyone who they deemed too privileged that their opinion doesn't matter! They should just shut up! (The funny thing is, on LJ at least, a lot of the time the person wanking about privilege is often white themselves.) That's why Kari's post so infuriated them. And they probably decided it was a tone argument.

Also, I've noticed that there is an extreme amount of aggression targeted especially towards white women in these debates (white men are usually just ignored. maybe they just aren't as prevalent, especially on LJ). I think it probably does have to do with the dominance of white women in the feminist movements and a feeling that white women have monopolized the definition of what it means to be a woman. But at the same time, the whole thing is sort of counterproductive (I suppose that would be called a tone argument too).

This explains what a tone argument is if you've never encountered the term before: http://community.livejournal.com/racism_101/29935.html

Michael Michael
07-29-2010, 01:36 PM
You don't see ~~mamas~~ in Afghanistan having tone arguments on a fucking blog.

nail. on. the. head.

Lathan
07-29-2010, 01:42 PM
It's activism for ninnies, basically, and at its most extreme level results in one "enlightened" person telling anyone who they deemed too privileged that their opinion doesn't matter! They should just shut up! (The funny thing is, on LJ at least, a lot of the time the person wanking about privilege is often white themselves.) That's why Kari's post so infuriated them. And they probably decided it was a tone argument.

I feel like it's such a "King of the Hill" situation. When you start eliminating people, you'll end up with one person so much more enlightened than everyone else for one made up reason or another.

Michael Michael
07-29-2010, 01:46 PM
I feel like it's such a "King of the Hill" situation. When you start eliminating people, you'll end up with one person so much more enlightened than everyone else for one made up reason or another.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/erlking2/kingofthehill-1.jpg

You don't know her experience.

Whappo
07-29-2010, 01:48 PM
THAT'S MY PURSE

I DON'T KNOW YOU

gyabou
07-29-2010, 01:59 PM
There's this awesome anonytroll that pops up every once in awhile on Fandom Secrets whenever there's a secret about white writers writing POCs, who lets us know that the solution to this problem is that white people should just stop writing. YOU'VE WRITTEN ENOUGH, FUCK OFF ;l

The whole situation disturbs me because it seems like this group of people have gotten this idea that anger = strength. That they can defeat any argument, win any struggle, by allowing themselves to become incandescent with rage. And they can be as rude and as nasty and mean as they want, because if anyone checks THEM, they're tone arguing with them.

My strategy when faced with this wall of self-righteous, unthinking bullshit is not to tell them they're being rude or whatever. I just let them burn out like toddlers having a temper tantrum and keep sourcing my argument with good examples, and if I'm right, then as far as I'm concerned idgaf. If any logical people are reading it, the other person will just look like a fucking idiot.

SMMY
07-29-2010, 04:05 PM
I feel like it's such a "King of the Hill" situation. When you start eliminating people, you'll end up with one person so much more enlightened than everyone else for one made up reason or another.

It really does. I can't believe the blinders they have on. In first grade during the sixties, our teacher asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up. The boys responses varied all over the place, the girls had three: nurse, teacher, mommy. When I became a chemist, I felt like I had been given such a huge gift by all of those women in the sixties and seventies that fought so hard for women to have the same career opportunities as men and to be taken seriously as members of the workforce. Now that girls in those same first grade classes have such a variety of answers to that original question of what you want to be, it seems like such progress, not that feminism doesn't have further to go. Reading that stupid blog though, makes me wonder how women who sacrificed so much to gain access and equality would find such petty bickering (who has the biggest butt hurt, I mean really that's what this has devolved to?) about what the movement has progressed to. It's like there isn't any agreement to where feminism should be heading and they're turning on themselves.

Medusa
07-29-2010, 07:28 PM
That's a really interesting point, SMMY, and one that I've touched on in conversations with my mother who, despite occasional "lapses" of judgment when discussing marriage/children with me, has a pretty clear-cut idea of what feminism is about to her. She and I got in a disagreement about the idea of taking your husband's name when marrying.

This is kind of off-topic, so I'm spoilering.
My sister is taking her soon-to-be-husband's name because she said she liked it and didn't see the big difference between exchanging one man's name for another, particularly if she chooses for herself to do it. Her fiance didn't care either way. My mom said something like "it's strange to hear a feminist say that, because when I was younger the idea of feminism meant that you kept your identity going into a marriage, and the name seemed like the most obvious choice for that so it was never even something I CONSIDERED when marrying your dad- he never even asked me if I would take his name or keep my own, and my family just accepted it as well" She asked me if I'd keep mine, and I said that I would because my last name was important to me primarily because the history behind it was so neat (I'm a history buff, my sister is not). I said "isn't the fact that we have this choice really showing that feminism has, in this regard, done much for us? It's a choice now, when before it was just what you did."

Mom just didn't get it at all because she kept saying that for her generation, there was almost a guidebook of sorts. FYI, SMMY- I'm not saying you're in my mom's generation, you're NOT! But what I mean is that, as feminism "succeeds" for many of us in terms of paving the way, our vision of what it can/should be becomes diluted or at the very least very broadly defined.

My mom thinks that being a feminist means you believe X, Y, and Z and if you're different, you're not a fuckin' feminist then. Now some people actually think that women like Sarah Palin really are "feminists" despite being pro-life. That sort of discussion wouldn't even have had to have taken place for my mom, or so she says. You're not pro-choice? You're not a feminist, get out of the club.

Why do we work really hard to be all inclusive in that way? I'm personally really eager to bend over backwards and say that anyone can be a feminist if they just believe it? Is it because people feel cowed by the fact that we're so consistently pigeonholed or our beliefs are turned into outright lies to suit someone who knows zip about women's rights?

SMMY
07-29-2010, 08:06 PM
That's a really interesting point, SMMY, and one that I've touched on in conversations with my mother who, despite occasional "lapses" of judgment when discussing marriage/children with me, has a pretty clear-cut idea of what feminism is about to her. She and I got in a disagreement about the idea of taking your husband's name when marrying.

This is kind of off-topic, so I'm spoilering.
My sister is taking her soon-to-be-husband's name because she said she liked it and didn't see the big difference between exchanging one man's name for another, particularly if she chooses for herself to do it. Her fiance didn't care either way. My mom said something like "it's strange to hear a feminist say that, because when I was younger the idea of feminism meant that you kept your identity going into a marriage, and the name seemed like the most obvious choice for that so it was never even something I CONSIDERED when marrying your dad- he never even asked me if I would take his name or keep my own, and my family just accepted it as well" She asked me if I'd keep mine, and I said that I would because my last name was important to me primarily because the history behind it was so neat (I'm a history buff, my sister is not). I said "isn't the fact that we have this choice really showing that feminism has, in this regard, done much for us? It's a choice now, when before it was just what you did."

Mom just didn't get it at all because she kept saying that for her generation, there was almost a guidebook of sorts. FYI, SMMY- I'm not saying you're in my mom's generation, you're NOT! But what I mean is that, as feminism "succeeds" for many of us in terms of paving the way, our vision of what it can/should be becomes diluted or at the very least very broadly defined.

My mom thinks that being a feminist means you believe X, Y, and Z and if you're different, you're not a fuckin' feminist then. Now some people actually think that women like Sarah Palin really are "feminists" despite being pro-life. That sort of discussion wouldn't even have had to have taken place for my mom, or so she says. You're not pro-choice? You're not a feminist, get out of the club.

Why do we work really hard to be all inclusive in that way? I'm personally really eager to bend over backwards and say that anyone can be a feminist if they just believe it? Is it because people feel cowed by the fact that we're so consistently pigeonholed or our beliefs are turned into outright lies to suit someone who knows zip about women's rights?

I probably am part of your mom's generation, in fact I'm sure of it. I was fortunate that my father always treated me as if my destiny wasn't defined by my gender. He expected that I would go to college and get a degree in anything I was interested in, not that marriage or family couldn't be part of that as well. He expected as much from me as he did my brother. Still, when I was in my second semester of college physics and the last woman in the class dropped out, I understood why feminism is still necessary. I am glad that there are more choices now, but that was my post's point. All of the work done by those women (and men) who came before us, allow us to have those choices. Like civil rights, what may seem like quaint bits of history were an integral and defining point in our lives.
And I'm glad there are more choices, but it is sad to see so much infighting. It hurts everyone and does nothing to further the discussion. Plus it makes feminists look like a pack of loonies, which most of us aren't.

Medusa
07-29-2010, 08:23 PM
My dad was and is like that, too. It was just a given that I would go to college and then grad school and that I could legitimately do anything I wanted to do. When I was little, I wanted to grow up to be a lawyer just like him. So much for that!

I put the link to the blog post up on my facebook and my mother actually messaged me to say that she wouldn't even look at it or weigh in on it because it pissed her off so much. That kind of shit puts her in the mind of "why exactly did I fight so hard so people could do X and claim to be feminists?" Though, of course, Mai'a ISN'T A FEMINIST!

I did that whole "oh, I'm not a feminist because feminists are X and I'm really about Y" thing when I was 18 because I was stupid as fuck. I grew out of that very, very quickly.

Dan
07-30-2010, 09:23 PM
"Mamahood"? Jesus fuck, bring on the cunt stapler.

Is it bad that I want to troll that blog with pictures of dead babies and Louboutins? Even better, pictures of dead babies in Louboutins?

Mori
07-30-2010, 09:26 PM
DO IT!!

Autumn
07-30-2010, 09:27 PM
I imagine the big human who posted that blog is this lady:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9a2zPlcV-s

Mori
07-30-2010, 10:22 PM
WTF did I just watch?? :eek:

Frangipani
07-30-2010, 10:25 PM
lol hes trying to put pretend monies in her belly button

SparkleMotion
07-31-2010, 05:42 PM
"Mamahood"? Jesus fuck, bring on the cunt stapler.

Is it bad that I want to troll that blog with pictures of dead babies and Louboutins? Even better, pictures of dead babies in Louboutins?

I'd go one better: Pictures of Louboutins made of dead babies.

Alan
08-01-2010, 02:57 AM
Oh God best best BEST.

Comment from someone neatly taking apart the contradictions in the OP:


feminist is to mama like yellow is to:
…the colostrum nectar that i breastfed my daughter her first days after birth
the color of my mixed race daughter cheek as she sleep at night
the crushed wildflowers that aza picks in the park and then brings to me saying in her singsong voice: mama i have a present for you!

First of all, the author starts out by making it very clear that life as a non-mama is drab and lifeless compared to mama-hood. Feminism, particularly, is unfulfilling compared to having a daughter. This is made explicit right from the start.

mama works as an honorific there. it replaces ‘miss’ and ‘maam’ and whatever ways of respectfully addressing women. it is not dependent on whether or not the woman has children.

Second, this makes it really, really clear that “mama” is gendered. The OP says herself that it’s how women are addressed. It replaces “miss” which is for girls and women, and “ma’am” which is for women… “Mama” is definitely obviously referring to women. At this point, the claim is that children are not necessary to be a “mama” but womanhood is.

MOTHERS did that, not you.
Mamis, mommies, mothers, M/others–NOT YOU.

Thirdly, the OP’s cosign of this statement reinforces that “mama” means women (all those other “m” words are gendered, commonly) and also introduces the idea that, actually, previous assurance aside, having a kid is an important and necessary part of being a “mama.”

being a mama is not a description of one’s biology or genitalia. … it is not a description of age or even male/female gender.

And then this disclaimer is tacked onto the end. What? That completely contradicts everything she said earlier. What are we supposed to think? That she genuinely respects non-parents (contradicted in the “fuck feminism” rant she quoted unreservedly) and that she really believes “mama” is an ungendered term (contradicted in the world-wide examples she gives) and life can be fulfilling and lovely without kids (nope, it’s just “yellow”)? How can we, when every other thing she says gives lie to that?

Look, if you honestly think women who don’t parent are useless selfish bitches, just say that. If you think that having a working uterus gives you +5 attack power to your activism, just say it. Don’t try to bullshit and dance around it.

And then aaahahaha a response comes:


Bagelsan, I’m not sure you’ve wrapped your head around the irony of using a principally Caucasian European literary theoretical model as a medium to attempt to deconstruct the OP.

Never mind that you’ve ignored the author’s suggestion at #281 to skip it if you don’t understand it.

Never mind that you’ve ignored Jill’s note at #286 that context matters, and her note at #290 concerning some rather well-worn tropes (that show up, yet again, in your posts here).

I just don’t remember you from Shapely Prose as being quite this closed-minded.
This is too funny. Tell me these people aren't serious.

SMMY
08-01-2010, 03:19 AM
*sets Merriam Webster dictionary on fire*

Michael Michael
08-01-2010, 07:52 AM
You're such a Caucasian European Alan. How dare you try to comprehend? Understanding isn't the point of language! The point of language is to make noise.

Alan
08-01-2010, 12:25 PM
It's so patronising, that's the thing. Like intellectual rigour, consistency and application are ~*Western tenets*~ because we couldn't possibly expect other cultures to engage in that kind of rational hogwash!

Churumbela
08-03-2010, 12:45 AM
I noticed someone in the comments was bawwing about their kid not being allowed in some waiting room at a medical facility. Someone who actually works in a hospital schooled them as to the why of this dreadful discrimination:

This is interesting to me because i've just returned from a large city centre hospital myself. I had an out-patient procedure but I noticed posters around setting out a new set of rules to help prevent infection on wards; no more than two adult visitors per bed, nobody with a cold or other infection allowed to visit a ward, wash your damn hands before entering a ward and here's the one that will no doubt start some idiots screeching: no under-sixteens allowed on wards as vistors at all. I think the new rules are splendid because one of the worst places to be when you're ill and prone to infection is an open ward because of idiots coming in with lovely new germs for everyone to experience and as the poster above points out, some childhood illnesses can basically kill people who are already very ill.

I couldn't stomach more than a few of the comments, so I'm pleased to see that a nurse responded to the idiocy regarding "no children near the ICU." That's a pretty common policy at hospitals everywhere, and it's obviously for a variety of very good reasons. I love that entitled mommies think it's because hospital administrations are out to get their precious little angels, and not because your little germ factories can kill patients. Not to mention the fact that, let's all admit it, children, as a group, tend to be noisy. The ICU is meant to be a pretty damn quiet place. (And if most ICUs are anything like ours, there may not be real "rooms" but a bunch of curtained areas to facilitate access for nurses and doctors.) You're talking about patients who may or may not survive to see the next day, why should they have to listen to your fussing toddler? Additionally, patients in the ICU frequently will be on the most equipment, so there's all those lovely buttons and cords and wonderful fun things that small children like to fiddle with when their parents aren't paying any attention to them.

Medusa
08-03-2010, 12:50 AM
I'm actually shocked that the ICU thing has to be explained. No, wait, I shouldn't be shocked because I know how fucking stupid people can be, but that it still doesn't make sense to them strains credulity. There's the germ factor and just the noise factor. I thought you were always supposed to be very quiet in the ICU- it's a shitty place to come in with your screaming and wailing children. But that aside, would you even want your children hanging about the ICU anyway?

Churumbela
08-03-2010, 12:59 AM
I work in a small town, and even our ICU is pretty strict. No one under 18, and no one who isn't immediate family. So if the original complainer about the ICU not letting in kids at been at our hospital, she wouldn't have even been allowed in, because the patient was her cousin.

(And if I had children, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even want them in there. I mean, it was hard enough for me being in there watching a family member actively dying.)

Medusa
08-03-2010, 01:13 AM
I hadn't thought of that. Go figure: she overlooks the part where MOST people can't go in and pinpoints the one thing that suits her argument (no one under 18) even though it was irrelevant to the situation.